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The causes for wisdom

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:02 pm
by robertk
robertk wrote:
But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.

But if we don't pay attention to our experience, how can sati and panna develop?
So first we need to know the conditions for these factors. This thread can consider the causes for panna, wisdom.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:15 pm
by Coyote
I have been following these threads and would love to know more. Please share your classical understanding from the Tipitaka and commentaries.

Thanks
:anjali:

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:01 pm
by robertk
Anguttara Nikaya
Mahavaggo THE GREAT CHAPTER Blessings

RETHREN, four blessings should be expected from listening to with
the
ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration with
the mind and penetration of the Norm (Dhamma) through insight (1).
What four ?
Herein, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the
Suttas..... Vedalla (2). He thus listens to, constantly recites,
carefully ponders over and penetrates the Norm. When he dies
bewildered (3) in mind and is reborn in a certain assembly of devas,
there the blissful ones recite to him the stanzas of the Norm.
Brethren, the arising of mindfulness is slow, but such a being
quickly achieves distinction therein.(4) Brethren, this is the first
blessing that should be expected from listening to, constant
recitation, careful consideration and penetration of the Norm
through
insight.

Again, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the
Suttas,
etc. He thus listens to; [as above] and is reborn in an assembly of
devas. There the blissful ones do not recite to him the stanzas of
the Norm ; but a brother possessed of psychic powers, who has
mastered his mind, proclaims the Norm to the assembly of devas. Then
this thought occurs to him (the former) This is indeed that Norm and
Discipline, according to which I lived the holy life in my previous
existence.' Brethren, slow is the arising of mindfulness. Yet that
being quickly achieves distinction therein.

Brethren, just as a person skilled in the sounds of drums, having
entered a road, hears the sound of a drum, and has no doubt or
uncertainty as to whether it is the sound of a drum or not. Then he
concludes that it is surely the sound of a drum. Just so, brethren,
a
brother masters the Norm consisting of the Suttas, etc. Then he
listens to [as above]. Then indeed that being quickly achieves
distinction therein. Brethren, this is the second blessing that
should be expected from listening to, constant recitation, careful
consideration and penetration of the Norm through insight....

1 Diññiyà,. Comy. says 'himself penetrates it by his wisdom both as
regards sense and cause.'

3 Comy. says 'he is still a puthujjana'' One dying without reaching
the Paths is said to die with mindfulness not established.

4 Comy`. He becomes nibbàna-gàmin (bound for the goal).'

http://www.abhidhamma.org/anguttara_nikaya...(2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)%2020htm.htm
best wishes
robert

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:03 pm
by robertk
Thanks. I was trying to find the sutta where I think sariputta explains the two causes for wisdom to arise:the voice of another(the Buddha) and wise attention.
Does anyone know it?

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:14 pm
by daverupa
robertk wrote:Thanks. I was trying to find the sutta where I think sariputta explains the two causes for wisdom to arise:the voice of another(the Buddha) and wise attention.
Does anyone know it?
You might be thinking of the Ghosa Sutta:
"Monks, there are these two conditions for the arising of wrong view. Which two? The voice of another and inappropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of wrong view."

"Monks, there are these two conditions for the arising of right view. Which two? The voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view."

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:22 pm
by robertk
Nice thanks!
I was actually thinking of this one -which repeats the same words-and which your link gives a link to.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So anyway the crucial conditions for panna , right view, are hearing true Dhamma from the Buddha or his disciple and wise attention to said Dhamma.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:37 pm
by Coyote
Hi Robertk, Daverupa,
robertk wrote:So anyway the crucial conditions for panna , right view, are hearing true Dhamma from the Buddha or his disciple and wise attention to said Dhamma.
My understanding of Buddhist terminology is rather limited - but I don't see anything different here than what has been taught in "common parlance ". Perhaps you could clarify what "wise attention" means here.

Thanks,
:anjali:

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:30 am
by robertk
HI coyote,
not sure I understand your question about common parlance?

One important issue I want to bring out is that the idea expressed in the opening post that it is by 'paying attention to our experiences' that wisdom develops, seems not really supported by sutta.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:09 am
by tiltbillings
robertk wrote:robertk wrote:
But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.
Okay. Examples of this. Who teaches such a thing?

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:33 am
by robertk
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:robertk wrote:
But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.
Okay. Examples of this. Who teaches such a thing?


In this thread we have someone saying:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 5&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
My biggest issue with mindfulness is boredom. It's often boring to be mindful when I'm washing my teeth or doing the dishes. Does it ever become enjoyable to do all these things mindfully?

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:40 am
by tiltbillings
robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:robertk wrote:
But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.
Okay. Examples of this. Who teaches such a thing?


In this thread we have someone saying:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 5&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
D wrote:
My biggest issue with mindfulness is boredom. It's often boring to be mindful when I'm washing my teeth or doing the dishes. Does it ever become enjoyable to do all these things mindfully?
Well, that can be seen as one person's not quite understanding things appropriately. So, do we take it, then, that this sort of thing is not actually being taught by anyone?

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:50 am
by robertk
I wonder why you expect that I know every possible thing that has been or is taught. Is it an important issue.?

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:54 am
by tiltbillings
robertk wrote:I wonder why you expect that I know every possible thing that has been or is taught. Is it an important issue.?
I certainly don't expect to you, or anyone, to know everything, but I would expect you to be able to put some flesh the bones of the OP to help make your point.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:05 am
by Spiny Norman
robertk wrote:One important issue I want to bring out is that the idea expressed in the opening post that it is by 'paying attention to our experiences' that wisdom develops, seems not really supported by sutta.
Isn't the Satipatthana Sutta a detailed exposition of how to pay attention to our experience?

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:38 pm
by robertk
In that sutta it is satisampajanna that needs to be understood and developed. While it is absolutely correct that the sati component knows a reality at the moment if satipatthana it must be in combibation with wisdom ( the pajanapart) to qualify as satipatthana.
And the wisdom in this case progressively understands the anattaness of every moment.
It can be seen as a virtuous circle where correct wise reflection on true Dhamma conditions correct moments of insight leading to deeper intellectual understand ing and rhen more moments of deeper direct experience.

c is true that sati