Levels of accomplishment?

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Cittasanto
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by Cittasanto »

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:Somewhere, venerable Dhammanando has an excellent table that shows what fetters are eradicated at each stage. Hopefully he sees this thread and can provide you a link to it.
I don't have a link to the E-sangha thread where I posted it, so I'll upload it here. It presents the elimination of defilements according to the Abhidhamma.



Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
I expected the number to increase through the various levels but I see according to the list a Stream enterer has more than the others (except an Arahant) and an arahant hasn't eradicated them all. do you know why this is? I though as you progressed through the levels more were eradicated until you were enlightened and none remained, except for the lower enlightened beings.
don't know where I saw a list of the various levels but it did show an increase.
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But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Manapa,
Manapa wrote:I expected the number to increase through the various levels
Oh? What grounds did you have for expecting that?
but I see according to the list a Stream enterer has more than the others (except an Arahant) and an arahant hasn't eradicated them all.
The arahant has eradicated them all. Fetters eradicated by the attainment of the lower ariyan paths, starting with the path of stream-entry, stay eradicated. They don't come back and have to be eradicated a second time.
I though as you progressed through the levels more were eradicated until you were enlightened and none remained,
That's right.
except for the lower enlightened beings.
Whom do you mean?

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

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Hi Dhammanando
Dhammanando wrote:Hi Manapa,
Manapa wrote:I expected the number to increase through the various levels
Oh? What grounds did you have for expecting that?
well the further along the path one is the fewer there should be but by the list you attached Stream enterer has removed 4 a once returner has removed none, a none returner has remover 3 and an arahant has removed 8 out of 14
Dhammanando wrote:
but I see according to the list a Stream enterer has more than the others (except an Arahant) and an arahant hasn't eradicated them all.
The arahant has eradicated them all. Fetters eradicated by the attainment of the lower ariyan paths, starting with the path of stream-entry, stay eradicated. They don't come back and have to be eradicated a second time.
they why does the list say a Stream enterer has removed 4 a once returner has removed none, a none returner has remover 3 and an arahant has removed 8 out of 14?
Dhammanando wrote:
I though as you progressed through the levels more were eradicated until you were enlightened and none remained,
That's right.
Does the list not mark those previously marked as removed?
Dhammanando wrote:
except for the lower enlightened beings.
Whom do you mean?
I don't remember where the list I am thinking of and mentioned is, on the net possibly A2I or somewhere else or in a book I have or had?
but Stream enterer, once returner, none returner, arahant, PaccetaBuddha, Sambuddha and if I remember in the list there may of been a couple of others mentioned possibly Boddhisatta (but only in the life where they become enlightened) but not sure on that specific one
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Manapa,
Manapa wrote: Dhammanando: Oh? What grounds did you have for expecting that?


Manapa: well the further along the path one is the fewer there should be but by the list you attached Stream enterer has removed 4 a once returner has removed none, a none returner has remover 3 and an arahant has removed 8 out of 14
Well, there are fewer fetters left, the further along the path one is. But there's no reason why the number eliminated at each stage should have to conform to some a priori mathematical metaphysic. The Buddhist universe isn't an arithmetically ordered Pythagorean one, nor a geometrically ordered Spinozoan one. It has its laws/regularities (dhammatā), but also its messinesses.
they why does the list say a Stream enterer has removed 4 a once returner has removed none, a none returner has remover 3 and an arahant has removed 8 out of 14?
It doesn't. There are fifteen fetters in all. 4 + 3 + 8 = 15. So the stream-enterer eliminates 4 fetters. When he becomes a once-returner he weakens 2 fetters, but doesn't eliminate any. When the once-returner becomes a non-returner he eliminates 3 more, making 7 in all. When the non-returner becomes an arahant he eliminates 8 more, making 15 in all.
Does the list not mark those previously marked as removed?
The viewer of the chart is simply expected to assume this, since eliminated fetters don't come back. The chart's aim is merely to show at which stage of the path each fetter is eliminated. From your post I sense there is some confusion about the different types of ariyans. You seem to be taking stream-entry, once-returning and non-returning as if they were final states, when in fact they are stages along the way.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

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Dhammanando wrote:Hi Manapa,

The viewer of the chart is simply expected to assume this, since eliminated fetters don't come back. The chart's aim is merely to show at which stage of the path each fetter is eliminated. From your post I sense there is some confusion about the different types of ariyans. You seem to be taking stream-entry, once-returning and non-returning as if they were final states, when in fact they are stages along the way.
I'm not taking them as final states, more like checkpoints in a race! you still have to carry on with the race but you have an idea of how to improve! to get to the final post/
well I try not to assume to much as I was once told when you assume you make an ass out of you and me. as the list wasn't clear on this point, Personally I found it confused, and confusing, thanks for clearing that up and correcting my maths not one of my strong points.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by kc2dpt »

If the eliminated fetters were marked in each column, one might make the mistake of thinking the same fetter has to be eliminated over and over again, up to 4 times. :shrug: So there's room for confusion no matter how you do it. The best thing to do is what you did: ask. :)
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

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Hi Peter
Peter wrote:If the eliminated fetters were marked in each column, one might make the mistake of thinking the same fetter has to be eliminated over and over again, up to 4 times. :shrug: So there's room for confusion no matter how you do it. The best thing to do is what you did: ask. :)
or have an explanation on the chart? sometimes it is easier to explain than assume prior knowledge on the matter.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by kc2dpt »

One cannot guess ahead of time all the ways someone will be confused.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by Cittasanto »

Peter wrote:One cannot guess ahead of time all the ways someone will be confused.
suppose that is why an explanatory note is common practice if not on the chart within the text which links to it or before it.
A common example would be

Chart 3 (page 154) shows which factors are removed at each level, and unique to that level

but back to the topic may be best
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by rowyourboat »

Isnt there another way of talking of attainment as well: dhamma follower, faith follower etc?
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by Dhammanando »

rowyourboat wrote:Isnt there another way of talking of attainment as well: dhamma follower, faith follower etc?
Yes, there are quite a few classifying schemes. The Puggalapaññatti of the Abhidhamma Pitaka (translated by B.C. Law as Designation of Human Types) is a useful source for these, most of them taken from the Anguttara Nikaya.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
Element

Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by Element »

rowyourboat wrote:Isnt there another way of talking of attainment as well: dhamma follower, faith follower etc?
From the Alagaddupama Sutta.
42. "Monks, this Teaching so well proclaimed by me, is plain, open, explicit, free of patchwork. In this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork; for those who are arahants, free of taints, who have accomplished and completed their task, have laid down the burden, achieved their aim, severed the fetters binding to existence, who are liberated by full knowledge, there is no (future) round of existence that can be ascribed to them.

43. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned the five lower fetters will all be reborn spontaneously (in the Pure Abodes) and there they will pass away finally, no more returning from that world.

44. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters and have reduced greed, hatred and delusion, are all once-returners, and, returning only once to this world, will then make an end of suffering.

45. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters, are all stream-enterers, no more liable to downfall, assured, and headed for full Enlightenment.

46. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit, and free of patchwork, those monks who are Dhamma followers, mature in faith, are all headed for full Enlightenment.

47. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those who are faith followers, who simply have faith in me, simply love for me, are all destined for heaven."

48. This said the Blessed One. Satisfied, the monks rejoiced in the words of the Blessed One.
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by Individual »

Element wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:Isnt there another way of talking of attainment as well: dhamma follower, faith follower etc?
From the Alagaddupama Sutta.
42. "Monks, this Teaching so well proclaimed by me, is plain, open, explicit, free of patchwork. In this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork; for those who are arahants, free of taints, who have accomplished and completed their task, have laid down the burden, achieved their aim, severed the fetters binding to existence, who are liberated by full knowledge, there is no (future) round of existence that can be ascribed to them.

43. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned the five lower fetters will all be reborn spontaneously (in the Pure Abodes) and there they will pass away finally, no more returning from that world.

44. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters and have reduced greed, hatred and delusion, are all once-returners, and, returning only once to this world, will then make an end of suffering.

45. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters, are all stream-enterers, no more liable to downfall, assured, and headed for full Enlightenment.

46. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit, and free of patchwork, those monks who are Dhamma followers, mature in faith, are all headed for full Enlightenment.

47. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those who are faith followers, who simply have faith in me, simply love for me, are all destined for heaven."

48. This said the Blessed One. Satisfied, the monks rejoiced in the words of the Blessed One.
Very interesting!

I notice, by the way, that "Dhamma followers," are themselves "mature in faith." So, it's not that Dhamma followers lack faith, but that their faith is well-developed.
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by andyebarnes67 »

I have always felt there to be a close correlation between the four levels - stream winner, once returner, non-return and Arahant to the Jhanas.
Does anyone more knowledgeable have any views/references for or against this view?
(Moderators, you might think this worth re posting as a new thread somewhere. If so, please do and just let me know here. Thanks.)
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by 2600htz »

andyebarnes67 wrote:I have always felt there to be a close correlation between the four levels - stream winner, once returner, non-return and Arahant to the Jhanas.
Does anyone more knowledgeable have any views/references for or against this view?
(Moderators, you might think this worth re posting as a new thread somewhere. If so, please do and just let me know here. Thanks.)
Hello:

There isn´t a close correlation between the four levels of enlightment and the jhanas.

AN 11.17 - A person can attain Arahanship just having the first jhana
"There is the case, householder, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He reflects on this and discerns, 'This first jhana is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters[1] — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world.
SN 12.70 - A group of Arahants unable to experience arupa jhanas
"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?"

"No, friend."

"So just now, friends, didn't you make that declaration without having attained any of these Dhammas?"

"We're released through discernment, friend Susima."
The Life of Sariputta - Sariputta attaining stream-entry without jhana
"Of all those things that from a cause arise,
Tathagata the cause thereof has told;
And how they cease to be, that too he tells,
This is the doctrine of the Great Recluse."[2]
Upon hearing the first two lines, Upatissa became established in the Path of stream-entry, and to the ending of the last two lines he already listened as a stream-winner.
In the Susima Sutta, Susima asks the Buddha how can a person can become an arahant and still not experience every jhana there is. The Buddha answered: "First, Susima, there is the knowledge of the regularity of the Dhamma [dependent co-arising], after which there is the knowledge of Unbinding."

So basically its saying u just need to see and understand dependent co-arising to become enlightened.

Regards.
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