Killing Insects

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Re: Killing Insects

Post by SarathW »

No_Mind wrote:
greenjuice wrote:
No_Mind wrote:as long as I understand and try to follow the teachings to the best of my ability.
Which teaching is that?
The same teachings as you follow but I follow them to the best of my ability. I do not claim that I am the perfect Buddhist as prescribed in the Suttas. I am just an ordinary man trying to become little better with the help of Buddha's teachings.

Mkoll, I did take refuge. But I do not believe I am the perfect practitioner of Buddhism. I am still unskillful in many ways. Maybe some day I will be able to eradicate most of my faults but that day is not today. All I will say is I am lot gentler and kinder and dare I say virtuous today than I was two years back.

As long as I do not lose sight of what I must become, what I am today is not very significant.

As far as my lack of belief in rebirth and Nibbana. It is hardly an unique position that I alone have. Many modern Buddhists have to struggle to come to terms with rebirth (and if one struggles to come to terms with rebirth one cannot entirely believe in Nibbana which is release from cycle of rebirths).

Buddhadasa Bhikkhu spoke of moment to moment rebirth (though his views were not representative of the Thai Forest tradition). I am still studying his works so not in a position to expand upon it.

:anjali:
Hi No-mind
With a very little knowledge I have about you, it seems you are a good Buddhist than many other Buddhist I know.
I believe in rebirth and Nirvana. I understand it my own way but it is still a belief.
Please continue with your study and practice.
Hope fully, one day, you will be able to teach me what Nirvana and re-birth means.
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Sanjay PS
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Re: Killing Insects

Post by Sanjay PS »

:anjali:
Hi No-mind
With a very little knowledge I have about you, it seems you are a good Buddhist than many other Buddhist I know.
I believe in rebirth and Nirvana. I understand it my own way but it is still a belief.
Please continue with your study and practice.
Hope fully, one day, you will be able to teach me what Nirvana and re-birth means.
:)

pardon me to join along Sarath , but :anjali:

sanjay
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

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greenjuice
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Re: Killing Insects

Post by greenjuice »

No_Mind wrote:As far as my lack of belief in rebirth and Nibbana. It is hardly an unique position that I alone have. Many modern Buddhists have to struggle to come to terms with rebirth (and if one struggles to come to terms with rebirth one cannot entirely believe in Nibbana which is release from cycle of rebirths).
Many modern Buddhists reject Buddha's teaching, so, that means that it's Buddhist to reject Buddha's teaching, is that what you're saying?

Without beliveing in rebirth, what's the point of calling oneself a Buddhist or talking about Buddha? Not only one rejects what is clearly a teaching of Buddha, but by rejecting rebirth, one then makes the four noble truths meaninless. If rebirth doesn't exist, then the four noble truths are obviously false. Life, understood as one lifetime, especially here today, is not suffering, maybe if you're in the third world starving or doing back-braking work for 15 hours a day to survive, but if you're not, it's fairly certain that your life on net if far from being suffering. Some lives are suffering, some are not. That being the case, if your life is not suffering, there is no need to renounce craving and to follow the eightfold path. But that's not what Buddha teaches, he teaches that even if your life now isn't suffering, you will be reborn again and again and will not escape suffering, and to escape that, you have to renounce craving and strive for Nibbana.

There is nothing wrong in not being a Buddhist, you can be a non-buddhist that finds some Buddha's words appealing and worth following, but calling yourself a Buddhist while rejecting the core and bulk of Buddha's teaching is just lying to yourself and others.

Here's for example an eloquent and common-sense essay by a meditation teacher about why he is not Buddhist even though he takes advice from Buddha on meditation, nothing wrong with that, in fact, the honesty is commendable: http://www.perthmeditationcentre.com.au ... ddhist.htm
SarathW
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Re: Killing Insects

Post by SarathW »

If one practices the Dhamma, one leads a blameless life in the here-and-now. Even if the afterlife and karmic results do not exist, one has not lost the wager, for the blamelessness of one's life is a reward in and of itself. If there is an afterlife with karmic results, then one has won a double reward: the blamelessness of one's life here and now, and the good rewards of one's actions in the afterlife. These two pragmatic arguments form the central message of this sutta.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

I think as a Budhhist you do not have to believe in re-birth or Nirvana.
If you follow the Noble Eight Fold Path you will have a good rebirth or attain Nirvana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
culaavuso
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Re: Killing Insects

Post by culaavuso »

greenjuice wrote:If rebirth doesn't exist, then the four noble truths are obviously false. Life, understood as one lifetime, especially here today, is not suffering, maybe if you're in the third world starving or doing back-braking work for 15 hours a day to survive, but if you're not, it's fairly certain that your life on net if far from being suffering.
SN 56.11: Dhamma­cakka­ppavattana Sutta wrote: Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress: Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.
It seems that many of those things are rather likely to happen within this very lifetime even without "living in the third world starving or doing back-breaking work for 15 hours a day to survive". It may be useful to note that dukkha covers a much broader range of meaning than the English word "suffering".
Pāḷi-English Dictionary: Dukkha wrote: There is no word in English covering the same ground as Dukkha does in Pali. Our modern words are too specialised, too limited, and usually too strong. Sukha & dukkha are ease and dis-ease (but we use disease in another sense); or wealth and ilth from well & ill (but we have now lost ilth); or wellbeing and ill-ness (but illness means something else in English). We are forced, therefore, in translation to use half synonyms, no one of which is exact. Dukkha is equally mental & physical. Pain is too predominantly physical, sorrow too exclusively mental, but in some connections they have to be used in default of any more exact rendering. Discomfort, suffering, ill, and trouble can occasionally be used in certain connections. Misery, distress, agony, affliction and woe are never right. They are all much too strong & are only mental (see Mrs. Rh. D. Bud. Psy. 83 -- 86, quoting Ledi Sadaw).
Sanjay PS
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Re: Killing Insects

Post by Sanjay PS »

[

It seems that many of those things are rather likely to happen within this very lifetime even without "living in the third world starving or doing back-breaking work for 15 hours a day to survive". It may be useful to note that dukkha covers a much broader range of meaning than the English word "suffering".
Pāḷi-English Dictionary: Dukkha wrote: There is no word in English covering the same ground as Dukkha does in Pali. Our modern words are too specialised, too limited, and usually too strong. Sukha & dukkha are ease and dis-ease (but we use disease in another sense); or wealth and ilth from well & ill (but we have now lost ilth); or wellbeing and ill-ness (but illness means something else in English). We are forced, therefore, in translation to use half synonyms, no one of which is exact. Dukkha is equally mental & physical. Pain is too predominantly physical, sorrow too exclusively mental, but in some connections they have to be used in default of any more exact rendering. Discomfort, suffering, ill, and trouble can occasionally be used in certain connections. Misery, distress, agony, affliction and woe are never right. They are all much too strong & are only mental (see Mrs. Rh. D. Bud. Psy. 83 -- 86, quoting Ledi Sadaw).
[/quote]

Suffering , stress are actually very myopic words . As we go deeper , dukkha becomes that much more clearer in everything and in anything........it is universal , and one cannot avoid dukkha so long as the mind keeps on creating worlds . The universal acceptance of dukkha gets tenderness to our minds and hearts , thus gets born the path of kindness , ahimsa......

With our heads down , and with a gentle smile on our face , having a heart deeply content with the Noble Truth of Life , any calamities , any kind of separation from our near and dear makes no difference . For an Arhant , this is the one and only way of life ; for worldlings , its only at times that these moments of deep wisdom brings us solace and real calm .....

sanjay
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka
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manas
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Re: Killing Insects

Post by manas »

I don't even slap a mosquito that is biting me; I blow it away gently, so as not to hurt it. But there are situations in which being too rigid with this rule, seems excessive. For example, if you have head lice, what will you do? If you have a tapeworm infestation? Or if termites are destroying your home, and you have young kids? Sometimes, not with any anger, but just out of necessity, it can be necessary for a layperson to kill, unfortunately. But one ought to avoid it as much as possible. But really, no matter what anyone says, I don't believe they would just let the lice breed in their hair, keep feeling their tapeworms like beloved internal pets, or allow termites to completely eat away their family home. Sometimes we just can't be totally perfect.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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manas
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Re: Killing Insects

Post by manas »

*feeding*
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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manas
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Re: Killing Insects

Post by manas »

I suspect that the only way to completely avoid killing anything at all, either intentionally or unintentionally, directly or indirectly, is to attain Nibbana and not be reborn in this World at all.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Sanjay PS
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Re: Killing Insects

Post by Sanjay PS »

manas wrote:I suspect that the only way to completely avoid killing anything at all, either intentionally or unintentionally, directly or indirectly, is to attain Nibbana and not be reborn in this World at all.
Not suspect ; " ekayano mago " the one and only way ; nothing fanatic about it , just a simple truth of life and living .
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka
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No_Mind
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Re: Killing Insects

Post by No_Mind »

greenjuice wrote:
No_Mind wrote:As far as my lack of belief in rebirth and Nibbana. It is hardly an unique position that I alone have. Many modern Buddhists have to struggle to come to terms with rebirth (and if one struggles to come to terms with rebirth one cannot entirely believe in Nibbana which is release from cycle of rebirths).
Many modern Buddhists reject Buddha's teaching, so, that means that it's Buddhist to reject Buddha's teaching, is that what you're saying?

Without beliveing in rebirth, what's the point of calling oneself a Buddhist or talking about Buddha? Not only one rejects what is clearly a teaching of Buddha, but by rejecting rebirth, one then makes the four noble truths meaninless. If rebirth doesn't exist, then the four noble truths are obviously false.

There is nothing wrong in not being a Buddhist, you can be a non-buddhist that finds some Buddha's words appealing and worth following, but calling yourself a Buddhist while rejecting the core and bulk of Buddha's teaching is just lying to yourself and others.
Without going into an extended debate about rebirth, I have to point out that I wrote "Many modern Buddhists have to struggle to come to terms with rebirth", not as you have wrongly quoted me "Many modern Buddhists reject Buddha's teaching, so, that means that it's Buddhist to reject Buddha's teaching, is that what you're saying?"

I find your definition of who is a Buddhist very constricting. Buddha allowed us complete freedom to understand the Dhamma at our own pace, with our own life, our own experiences. I believe the Pali term is ehipassiko "come and see".

Buddha is hardly concerned if we accept or reject rebirth. The principal point he would have appreciated is if we are living a Dhammic life. Nowhere does he say if one does not accept rebirth one is breaking a cardinal rule and if that was the case he would have made it a part of precepts.

The principal point is am I living in accordance with Dhamma "now". If I am, and if every moment I am doing that, it matters little if I believe in rebirth or not. If every moment I live in accordance with Dhamma, it matters little to Buddha if I believe rebirth exists or not. Dhammic living is the key, not beliefs. The practice is the key (at least that is what I have understood from reading about Buddhism)

Would you say Buddhadasa Bhikkhu with his moment to moment rebirth interpretation was not a Buddhist? I understand he does not represent majority view of Theravada Buddhism but I find him very reasonable.

You may not believe I am a Buddhist. That is your prerogative.
manas wrote:I don't even slap a mosquito that is biting me; I blow it away gently, so as not to hurt it. But there are situations in which being too rigid with this rule, seems excessive. For example, if you have head lice, what will you do? If you have a tapeworm infestation? Or if termites are destroying your home, and you have young kids? Sometimes, not with any anger, but just out of necessity, it can be necessary for a layperson to kill, unfortunately. But one ought to avoid it as much as possible. But really, no matter what anyone says, I don't believe they would just let the lice breed in their hair, keep feeling their tapeworms like beloved internal pets, or allow termites to completely eat away their family home. Sometimes we just can't be totally perfect.
That is exactly my position also Manas. I avoid killing unless it is essential. Before killing I will explore all other options and think for very long while. But if there is no other way (like lice or worms) I will have to kill.

:anjali:
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
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greenjuice
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Re: Killing Insects

Post by greenjuice »

I have to point out that I wrote "Many modern Buddhists have to struggle to come to terms with rebirth", not as you have wrongly quoted me "Many modern Buddhists reject Buddha's teaching, so, that means that it's Buddhist to reject Buddha's teaching, is that what you're saying?"
I wasn't quoting you, I am just explaining what you said. "Struggling with rebirth" means struggling with accepting Buddha's teaching, because, accept it or reject, the notion of rebirth is Buddha's teaching. If you're struggling to accept Buddha's teaching, more people doing the same doesn't undo the fact that it is Buddha's teaching.
Buddha is hardly concerned if we accept or reject rebirth.
Actually, not accepting rebirth is a wrong view. Buddha explicitly mentions that not accepting the existence of the fruits of kamma, the next world, and the spontaneously born beings (gods and divinities, ghosts, inhabitants of hells) is a wrong view.
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No_Mind
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Re: Killing Insects

Post by No_Mind »

greenjuice wrote:
Buddha is hardly concerned if we accept or reject rebirth.
Actually, not accepting rebirth is a wrong view. Buddha explicitly mentions that not accepting the existence of the fruits of kamma, the next world, and the spontaneously born beings (gods and divinities, ghosts, inhabitants of hells) is a wrong view.
Can you quote the sutta please? But to be candid I will not be fully convinced by a sutta when it comes to rebirth. You can put that down to another one of my short comings. I am as I said struggling with rebirth. Through my own insight I must find answer to this question,

:anjali:
Last edited by No_Mind on Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
SarathW
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Re: Killing Insects

Post by SarathW »

You find it in Abhidhamma as well.
========
6.False view (di.t.thi) is seeing things in a distorted way. There are several kinds of false views:

A.the view of a truly existent self (sakkaaya di.t.thi);
B.eternalism (sassata di.t.thi) or nihilism (uccheda di.t.thi);
C.the view denying the efficacy or fruits of kamma (natthi di.t.thi), causality (ahetuka di.t.thi), and the moral law (ahiriya di.t.thi).

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el322.html
========
In Sutta it explained as Lokiya Sammadhitthi.
:)
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Mkoll
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Re: Killing Insects

Post by Mkoll »

No_Mind wrote:
greenjuice wrote:
Buddha is hardly concerned if we accept or reject rebirth.
Actually, not accepting rebirth is a wrong view. Buddha explicitly mentions that not accepting the existence of the fruits of kamma, the next world, and the spontaneously born beings (gods and divinities, ghosts, inhabitants of hells) is a wrong view.
Can you quote the sutta please? But to be candid I will not be fully convinced by a sutta when it comes to rebirth. You can put that down to another one of my short comings. I am as I said struggling with rebirth. Through my own insight I must find answer to this question,

:anjali:
MN 117 wrote:I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks: "Monks!"

"Yes, lord," the monks responded to him.

The Blessed One said, "Monks, I will teach you noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions. Listen, and pay close attention. I will speak."

"Yes, lord," the monks responded to him.

The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.

[1] "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view.

"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; there is right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view[1] in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"One makes an effort for the abandoning of wrong view & for entering into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.[2] Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.
(my emphasis added)
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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