five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

[chethinie]

Hi,
Just wondering why the 05th precept - Refraining from self-intoxication through alcohol or drugs are not listed in the ten demeritourious deeds...
What do you think?
Chethinie

Ten Demeritorious Deeds (Dasa Akusala Kamma)

Through Bodily Action:
1. Panatipata - Killing
2. Adinnadana - Stealing
3. Kamesumicchacara - Sexual Misconduct
Through Verbal Speech:
4. Musavada - Lying
5. Pisunavaca - Slandering
6. Phaarusavaca - Harsh Speech
7. Samphappalapa - Frivolous Talk
Through Mind Thought:
8. Abhijjha - Coverousness
9. Vjapada - Ill-Will (hatred)
10. Micchaditthi - Wrong Views

Anguttara Nikaya X.176 : Cunda Kammaraputta Sutta
(To Cunda the Silversmith

[Babadhari]

intoxicants have caused me to do all ten demeritous deeds in the past! the drinking of alcohol itself is not the bad deed, it is the cause of the bad action in my opinion

[waterchan]

The fifth precept is a bit different from the other four. It is not a gross demeritorious deed in itself, for consumption of intoxicants is not directly harmful to others. However it does provide the potential for heedlessness, negligence, and the potential to commit any of the ten demeritorious deeds, which is why it is a precept. Intoxication disrupts mindfulness, stillness, and hinders one's dhamma practice, despite many deluded claims to the contrary.

Note that according to the Vinaya, the fifth precept was the last of the five precepts to come into effect, after a monk received alcohol as alms, consumed it and consequently collapsed on the ground. He had to be carried back to his monastery and missed a dhamma talk by the Buddha. From that point on, the Buddha forbade his monks to consume or knowingly accept alcohol.

Ajahn Brahm has said that if one finds it hard to keep five precepts, keep only two: to not harm others and to not harm oneself. The first four precepts are about not harming others and the fifth one is to not harm yourself.

[chownah]

There are ten demeritorious deeds because eleven is just a really weird number and they couldn't figure out how to make it twelve so they figured that having a beer on a hot summer day was probably the least demeritorious of any of the eleven so they axed it to give a nice round number of ten so you could associate one demeritorious deed with each of your fingers.....or toes.....
chownah

[Babadhari]

There are ten demeritorious deeds because eleven is just a really weird number and they couldn't figure out how to make it twelve so they figured that having a beer on a hot summer day was probably the least demeritorious of any of the eleven so they axed it to give a nice round number of ten so you could associate one demeritorious deed with each of your fingers.....or toes.....
chownah

[waterchan]

There are ten demeritorious deeds because eleven is just a really weird number and they couldn't figure out how to make it twelve so they figured that having a beer on a hot summer day was probably the least demeritorious of any of the eleven so they axed it to give a nice round number of ten so you could associate one demeritorious deed with each of your fingers.....or toes.....

Couldn't they have done something similar with the 227 bhikkhu precepts?! Like, make it 200 or something?

[culaavuso]

Just wondering why the 05th precept - Refraining from self-intoxication through alcohol or drugs are not listed in the ten demeritourious deeds...
What do you think?

It's noteworthy that practicing mindfulness and concentration is not listed as a meritorious deed, either. In that case, the practice itself is not a skillful action but it is an important step to developing heedfulness such that skillful actions will be taken in the future. Similarly, the reason given for abstaining from intoxicants is that using intoxicants causes heedlessness. Heedlessness is a condition allowing for the arising of unskillful conduct. Using intoxicants is described as an "occasion for demerit", a "channel for dissipating wealth", and a "cause of heedlessness". The other unskillful actions are directly demeritorious.

To explain metaphorically: getting hit by a car leads directly to painfulness, but wandering in the middle of the highway is only an "occasion for painfulness".

Snp 2.14

A layman who has chosen to practice this Dhamma should not indulge in the drinking of intoxicants. He should not drink them nor encourage others to do so; realizing that it leads to madness. Through intoxication foolish people perform evil deeds and cause other heedless people to do likewise. He should avoid intoxication, this occasion for demerit, which stupefies the mind, and is the pleasure of foolish people.

DN 31

"There are, young householder, these six evil consequences in indulging in intoxicants which cause infatuation and heedlessness:

(i) loss of wealth,
(ii) increase of quarrels,
(iii) susceptibility to disease,
(iv) earning an evil reputation,
(v) shameless exposure of body,
(vi) weakening of intellect.

AN 4.99

And how is one an individual who practices neither for his own benefit nor for that of others?
...
He himself doesn't abstain from intoxicants that cause heedlessness and doesn't encourage others in undertaking abstinence from intoxicants that cause heedlessness.

[Cittasanto]

The fifth precept is about protecting oneself from heedlessness, it isn't an unwholesome action in the same way the others are.
The other acts are unwholesome regardless of reason, however, intoxicants can be useful in certain circumstances such as when it is used as a preservative ingredient, pain relief, or as a medicine. These "neutral" uses are also allowable for mendicants in proper context/amounts.

[chethinie]

Hello all,

Thank you very much for the very insightful feedback. Personally I do not consume alcohol nor do any of my family members. It’s just that I’m trying to understand everything clearly and as such my questions on this. Thank you Culaavuso for the detailed references. It’s now clear that the Lord Buddha did instruct us to abstain from intoxicants.

Could anyone please also give me the reference to the sutta or likewise where the Buddha mentioned us to follow the five precepts please?

Thanks a million in advance!

Chethinie

[santa100]

Here're some from the ATI site: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-su ... l#precepts

[Cittasanto]

There is also the index entries here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-su ... l#precepts
although the entries under protection are also useful, as are the entries in Sila here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#sila

[Anagarika]

The fifth precept is about protecting oneself from heedlessness, it isn't an unwholesome action in the same way the others are.
The other acts are unwholesome regardless of reason, however, intoxicants can be useful in certain circumstances such as when it is used as a preservative ingredient, pain relief, or as a medicine. These "neutral" uses are also allowable for mendicants in proper context/amounts.

Cittasanto, I have a question for you, if you don't mind. I know that you were an Anagarika. I was for a brief time a samanera in Thailand, and wish to take this year permanent 8 precepts; Anagarika precepts. My hope is to be a solid 8 precept practitioner. Articles like this https://www.yahoo.com/food/is-red-wine- ... 88911.html always raise a question for me. I do not drink to excess, and have only, until this year, drank a glass or two of red wine. Approaching the summer and wishing to request of my abbot to take the full 8 precepts for life, I stopped drinking anything with alcohol in it. However, science suggests there really are health benefits to drinking small amounts of red wine for men, especially men of my age...over 50.

As has been discussed, consuming intoxicants leads to heedlessness. However, can in your opinion a half a glass of red wine for health reasons alone be medicinal, and an ethical exception to the rules?

Happy to hear from anyone on this subject...thanks in advance to Cittasanto.

[culaavuso]

However, can in your opinion a half a glass of red wine for health reasons alone be medicinal, and an ethical exception to the rules?

Happy to hear from anyone on this subject...

A few points worth considering:

First, much of the benefit of red wine is attributed to resveratrol which can be found in red grapes without consuming alcohol. In addition to red grapes and red wine, there are dietary supplements of resveratrol as an option as well. See Resveratrol Supplements for more information.

Second, some researchers are still not convinced about the validity of these studies (see Resveratrol: Don't Buy the Hype for an example).

Third, reduced stress from increased meditation practice can itself produce a lot of the beneficial consequences in terms of heart health. See Meditation may reduce death, heart attack and stroke in heart patients. This is interesting in that using alcohol as a coping mechanism for stress in the absence of better methods may explain some of its efficacy.

Finally, it's worth carefully considering the motivations and influence of such a decision on mental state. If there are valid and well founded medical reasons for such a decision, that's a very different matter from a situation where the mind uses poorly established research findings as an excuse to continue behavior that is enjoyable or alleviates anxiety and fears of illness and death. Whatever you choose, it's worth carefully examining your motivation to ensure that unwholesome mental states aren't being reinforced through the decision.

[lyndon taylor]

Research done on Seventh Day Adventists that neither drink, smoke, or in 1/2 the cases, eat meat show them to live something like 6 years longer than meat eating SDAs, and healthier in almost every extent than the general population. As none of them drink there's really no way to compare that data, but I have heard the same thing, all the so called positive benefits of wine can be had from non fermented grape juice.

[Anagarika]

However, can in your opinion a half a glass of red wine for health reasons alone be medicinal, and an ethical exception to the rules?

Happy to hear from anyone on this subject...

A few points worth considering:

First, much of the benefit of red wine is attributed to resveratrol which can be found in red grapes without consuming alcohol. In addition to red grapes and red wine, there are dietary supplements of resveratrol as an option as well. See Resveratrol Supplements for more information.

Second, some researchers are still not convinced about the validity of these studies (see Resveratrol: Don't Buy the Hype for an example).

Third, reduced stress from increased meditation practice can itself produce a lot of the beneficial consequences in terms of heart health. See Meditation may reduce death, heart attack and stroke in heart patients. This is interesting in that using alcohol as a coping mechanism for stress in the absence of better methods may explain some of its efficacy.

Finally, it's worth carefully considering the motivations and influence of such a decision on mental state. If there are valid and well founded medical reasons for such a decision, that's a very different matter from a situation where the mind uses poorly established research findings as an excuse to continue behavior that is enjoyable or alleviates anxiety and fears of illness and death. Whatever you choose, it's worth carefully examining your motivation to ensure that unwholesome mental states aren't being reinforced through the decision.

Excellent response, thanks, Culaavuso.

I had though that resveratrol was a product of fermented red wine, and not just the juice of the grape. If there are ways to get the same (claimed) health benefits from drinking a nonalcoholic drink, even grape juice itself, then that for me is the way to go, and I avoid even the repugnant idea of being an 8 preceptor and buying the occasional (medicinal) bottle of Malbec. Glad for this timely info!

In a strange way, the renunciation of items that for most of my life were commonplace and even valued has helped me with samma mindfulness and meditation. This practice brings home daily not just a sense of renunciation, but also a sense of just how much one does, or has done in one's life, that is part of that addiction to sense pleasure...that roller coaster of sense pleasures that just repeats like an unhealthy feedback loop.