Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 23817
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings everyone,

I just wanted to share with you a diagrammatical representation of a non-time-delineated that I've designed and modified in conjunction with a few people who have provided useful feedback (who I am also pleased to see are now members of this very board).

This map has been very useful for me in terms of getting a big picture view of dependent origination and I hope others interested in exploring the non-commentarial model will find it of use too.

Comments, feedback and suggestions for improvement all welcome.
Dependent Origination Map 0.5.png
Dependent Origination Map 0.5.png (103.41 KiB) Viewed 4468 times
(Version 0.5 - Updated 21st April 2010)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
User avatar
appicchato
Posts: 1602
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Bridge on the River Kwae

Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Post by appicchato »

Excellent Paul...

In the 'Nama' segment it's broken down into five different categories...this is a new one on me, as it is usually defined as consisting of the four mental groups...feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness...just wondering a little where you came up with the three besides feeling and perception...

Be well...
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 23817
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings venerable,

Yes, now I'm wondering that too! I'm not ingenious enough to have thought of it myself so it must have come from somewhere. I'll have a think about it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
Jack
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:54 pm

Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Post by Jack »

I agree with the others that you need the category of mental formations to account for all the other mental constituents.

Why do you call it a non-time-delineated model?

What interests me is how one takes the conceptual model of Dependent Origination into their real life. Care to comment?

Jack
User avatar
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 1842
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: California

Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Unlike retro and others I do not see the great value in this model vs the mundane one that applies to more than one lifetime. The former is useful and interesting but no more so than the ordinary one. And "non-time" will not work, for even moments during a day or one lifetime take some time.

Does not sankhara also mean "fabrications" - ie the effect or result? If that is the case, then how can we assume that every single kammic effect will take place in a few moments within this single lifetime? Some conditions for the result may not arise until a future lifetime.
Last edited by Nicholas Weeks on Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, deep, subtle, difficult, delicate, unseen by passion’s slaves cloaked in the murk of ignorance. Vipassī Buddha
User avatar
Fede
Posts: 1182
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: The Heart of this "Green & Pleasant Land"...
Contact:

Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Post by Fede »

*Off-Topic* Will, your avatar is hiding a lot of your text. I can literally only read half of your posts.

BTT:

Retro, is there any way of making the attachment 'static'? I'm having trouble perusing it all. perhaps if it's not too much trouble, you could send it to me as an e-mail attachment?
I'd be interested in perusing it.

At my stage of study, this would be most welcome!

EDIT:

To my own astonishment, I've actually been able to do this myself!
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
stuka
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:37 am

Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Post by stuka »

Will wrote:Unlike retro and others I do not see ....

Yeah.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 23817
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Jack,
Jack wrote:I agree with the others that you need the category of mental formations to account for all the other mental constituents.
In compiling this, I've wanted to keep the scope of development restricted to the suttas, and by doing so leaving out anything that could be considered a later-development.
Why do you call it a non-time-delineated model?
This is because it isn't pegged across three lifetimes as it is in the commentaries (and thus, any sutta translations that depend on the commentaries). A good explanation of the differences between the commentarial interpretation and a non-time-delineated model can be found at

Dependent Origination - The Buddhist Law of Conditionality
by Ven. Prayudh Payutto
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... nation.htm
Jack wrote: What interests me is how one takes the conceptual model of Dependent Origination into their real life. Care to comment?
I'm a firm believer that the Buddha taught only that which was related to the cessation of suffering, as per the precedent he outlined in SN 56.31 Simsapa Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html) so it must be relevant in some way. Personally I find it very useful whenever I notice even a slightest moment of discontent, I can try to be mindful firstly of 'what just happened?' and see that it maps to the model and then I can actually try to actively observe discontent and see the model as being true. To me, dependent origination is like a more detailed version of the 2nd and 3rd Noble Truths.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 23817
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings venerable,
appicchato wrote:In the 'Nama' segment it's broken down into five different categories...this is a new one on me, as it is usually defined as consisting of the four mental groups...feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness...just wondering a little where you came up with the three besides feeling and perception...
I suspect it was from here - http://www.buddhamind.info/leftside/tea ... d-nama.htm

Metta,
Retro. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Post by Jechbi »

Dear Retro,

Thank you for posting this here. I did not understand why it was regarded as controversial in the first place. One question: When I first saw this chart, I had the impression that literal rebirth is implicit in it. What do you think?

Metta
:)
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
User avatar
Fede
Posts: 1182
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: The Heart of this "Green & Pleasant Land"...
Contact:

Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Post by Fede »

Would somebody please explain to me what is meant by Eye/ear/nose/and so on - Feeling?
Craving for certain stimuli contact with certain stimuli and the sense-bases themselves are relatively self-explanatory.
But I don't think I fully comprehend the 'feeling' inference....

Are we talking about actual sensation and action of the sense itself.... the sense in action?

Or is there an 'emotive' angle?
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6636
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Post by Cittasanto »

Fede wrote:Would somebody please explain to me what is meant by Eye/ear/nose/and so on - Feeling?
Craving for certain stimuli contact with certain stimuli and the sense-bases themselves are relatively self-explanatory.
But I don't think I fully comprehend the 'feeling' inference....

Are we talking about actual sensation and action of the sense itself.... the sense in action?

Or is there an 'emotive' angle?
their are three types of feeling pleasant painful and neither pleasant or painful so it is the first reaction to the sense object that the feeling is about!
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
christopher:::
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:56 am

Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Post by christopher::: »

Excellent work, Retro!

;)
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 23817
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Jechbi,
Jechbi wrote:Thank you for posting this here. I did not understand why it was regarded as controversial in the first place.
It's controversial to the extent that it differs from the commentarial 'three-lives' version. It has significant acceptance though from many Theravadins (and also I notice, Zen practitioners) so to many it's just the natural interpretation.
Jechbi wrote: One question: When I first saw this chart, I had the impression that literal rebirth is implicit in it. What do you think?
[/quote]
I think it constitutes a different subject to rebirth altogether. In other words it's a model of suffering, not a model of transmigration. Accordingly it neither denies nor affirms rebirth in and of itself. I think it's entirely consistent with rebirth though, and that the processes outlined needn't cease, simply because conventional death occurs.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 23817
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Some interesting thoughts on the non-time-delineated model of dependent origination from Ajahn Sumedho...

Extract from The Way It Is
http://www.amaravati.org/abmnew/documen ... 20moa.html

Image

Metta,
Retro. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
Post Reply