Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Digity
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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by Digity »

The deeper you get into this practice the more deeply you see into the mind. In doing so, you start to see the negative tendencies there. This is *not* a bad thing. It means you're getting more and more sensitive to the mind. At first this can be deeply discouraging, because you see all the sh*t in there. You start to think you're a bad person...too flawed, etc. The reality is that the only way out is through. You need to go through these things and work on cleansing your mind of these defilements, but the first step is always awareness. You need to be aware of these things and that's what you're doing.
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Aloka
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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by Aloka »

.

"Good Thoughts, Bad Thoughts And Happiness " from Ajahn Sumedho (12 minutes). Definately worth listening to!





:anjali:
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Bundokji
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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by Bundokji »

That's a really good talk, thanks for sharing Aloka :anjali:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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lionking
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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by lionking »

First of all I want to know if bad thoughts that are unacted upon create bad karma?
The mind always gets filled with unsolicited thoughts. You are only responsible if you take any action based on the thought.

The moment you verbalize or take physical action you have taken ownership of the thought. The Kamma (cause) will bring in the appropriate Vipaka (effect).

Dhamma is very logical. Its only when you have taken ownership you are responsible for its consequences.

The best practice with unsolicited thoughts is just stand back and observe. It will make an appearance and then disappear. Do not worry they do not belong to you.
grr ..
steve19800
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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by steve19800 »

Aloka wrote:.

"Good Thoughts, Bad Thoughts And Happiness " from Ajahn Sumedho (12 minutes). Definately worth listening to!





:anjali:
Hi guys,

Sorry to cut this.
I think there are different views about intention. Intention can be seen on the gross level such as I want to help, I do not want to help, etc. but according to other people everything arises on thoughts are driven by intention (including bad thoughts) otherwise we may not be able to perform anything. My understanding is, the former one seems to be more logical, I can understand Dhamma talk by Ajahn Sumedho above. At the same time, I also think our mindfulness could be limited.

I feel there are a lot of misinterpretation about Buddha teaching in general and misunderstandings about the meaning of intention in Buddhism specifically, how can we really be sure that bad thoughts arise suddenly are not driven by intention?


Here is another intention (Pg.6):

At this point we might take some time to broaden our understanding of this word “intention.” “Intention” in the context of Buddhism has a much subtler meaning than it has in common usage. In the English language, we tend to use the word when we want to provide a link between internal thought and its resultant external actions. For example, we might say, “I didn’t intend to do it,” “I didn’t mean to say it” or “she did it intentionally.”
But according to the teachings of Buddhism, all actions and speech, all thoughts, no matter how fleeting, and the responses of the mind to sensations received through eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind, without exception, contain elements of intention.

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/good_evil_beyond.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And

...unless you have some degree of liberation, intentionality is part of every moment of human consciousness. Somehow, every moment of human consciousness is filtered or informed or influences by intentionality. Most of the time, we do not have a clue that it is operating. It just operates unconsciously or subconsciously. We want stuff; we don’t want stuff; this and that; trying to figure things out. Even when the mind thinks about things, it generally has some intentions. There is some direction towards which we are trying to go. You might feel quite peaceful and at ease because the flow of intentionality is unobstructed, but still intentionality is there...

http://www.insightmeditationcenter.org/ ... intention/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Thanks for sharing guys.
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Sekha
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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by Sekha »

My two cents. It sounds like you are doing just the right thing, and it's all that counts.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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seeker242
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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by seeker242 »

Dhammapada

3. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.

4. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred.
Perhaps the initial thought may not make very bad kamma because it just comes up by itself. But if you continue to harbor them or brood over them, give them inappropriate attention, etc. then I think one could easily call that creating bad kamma. Even if you never act on it verbally or physically. Having a hate filled mind is still bad even if you don't express it.

:meditate:
steve19800
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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by steve19800 »

seeker242 wrote:
Dhammapada

3. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.

4. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred.
Perhaps the initial thought may not make very bad kamma because it just comes up by itself. But if you continue to harbor them or brood over them, give them inappropriate attention, etc. then I think one could easily call that creating bad kamma. Even if you never act on it verbally or physically. Having a hate filled mind is still bad even if you don't express it.

:meditate:
But where does this initial thought come from? There is always cause and effect.
We do not intend to initiate this (bad) thought. It might come up by itself suddenly (without cause and effect) Or perhaps we just do not know how it works until it is perceptible.
I'm afraid if it's a bad kamma although we do not intend it, that'll be the same as predestined fate, we make kamma even there is no intention.
But the question is how do we know if we don't have any intention?
steve19800
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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by steve19800 »

acinteyyo wrote: An unwholesome thought, recognized by one as unwholesome and given up, does not lead to unwholesome kamma.
But a thought that arises suddenly may also creating kamma, as someone already mentioned above.
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acinteyyo
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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by acinteyyo »

steve19800 wrote:
acinteyyo wrote: An unwholesome thought, recognized by one as unwholesome and given up, does not lead to unwholesome kamma.
But a thought that arises suddenly may also creating kamma, as someone already mentioned above.
Not thoughts create kamma, but how we respond to thoughts. Of course the thought that arises plays a role when it is a cause for the action that is done in response, but it is a matter of appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) what will be the re-action.
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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seeker242
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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by seeker242 »

steve19800 wrote:
seeker242 wrote:
Dhammapada

3. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.

4. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred.
Perhaps the initial thought may not make very bad kamma because it just comes up by itself. But if you continue to harbor them or brood over them, give them inappropriate attention, etc. then I think one could easily call that creating bad kamma. Even if you never act on it verbally or physically. Having a hate filled mind is still bad even if you don't express it.

:meditate:
But where does this initial thought come from? There is always cause and effect.
We do not intend to initiate this (bad) thought. It might come up by itself suddenly (without cause and effect) Or perhaps we just do not know how it works until it is perceptible.
I'm afraid if it's a bad kamma although we do not intend it, that'll be the same as predestined fate, we make kamma even there is no intention.
But the question is how do we know if we don't have any intention?
If I had to guess I would say the initial thought of something like "I hate those people!" is just an effect of a mind that's filled with poison. So not necessarily "by itself" so to speak. It still have a cause. The cause is an unenlightened mind. "By itself" would mean that we didn't deliberately conjure it up on purpose. It just appears "by itself" because the mind has poison. But of course, no one intends for their mind to be poisoned. But that poison still has an effect.

:meditate:
steve19800
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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by steve19800 »

acinteyyo wrote:
steve19800 wrote:
acinteyyo wrote: An unwholesome thought, recognized by one as unwholesome and given up, does not lead to unwholesome kamma.
But a thought that arises suddenly may also creating kamma, as someone already mentioned above.
Not thoughts create kamma, but how we respond to thoughts. Of course the thought that arises plays a role when it is a cause for the action that is done in response, but it is a matter of appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) what will be the re-action.
A thought that arises (suddenly) has element of intention.
Although it arises suddenly, it does not arise under every condition. Maybe we want to consider if the thought that arises suddenly is created through (previous) habit which is not possible without intention. It creates kamma just as it created through habit, however, dwelling and cultivating bad thoughts will lead to further unwholesome kamma-vipaka.

Please check my previous post on the bottom of page 1, buddhanet link pg.6.
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acinteyyo
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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by acinteyyo »

steve19800 wrote:A thought that arises (suddenly) has element of intention.
In every experience there is intention (cetanā) present, since it is part of nāma in nāmarūpa.
I leave your statements as they are. I have made my point.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
steve19800
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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by steve19800 »

acinteyyo wrote:
steve19800 wrote:A thought that arises (suddenly) has element of intention.
In every experience there is intention (cetanā) present, since it is part of nāma in nāmarūpa.
I leave your statements as they are. I have made my point.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Sorry, do I misunderstand you? On your previous post you said: not thoughts create kamma, but how we respond to thoughts. Thanks again.
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acinteyyo
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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by acinteyyo »

steve19800 wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:
steve19800 wrote:A thought that arises (suddenly) has element of intention.
In every experience there is intention (cetanā) present, since it is part of nāma in nāmarūpa.
I leave your statements as they are. I have made my point.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Sorry, do I misunderstand you? On your previous post you said: not thoughts create kamma, but how we respond to thoughts. Thanks again.
I don't know. The point I was trying to make is, that the mere arising of an unwholesome thought does not necessarily lead to an unwholesome action that bears an unwholesome fruit.
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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