Do persons for instance Christians merit fortunate rebirth

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3z42j
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Do persons for instance Christians merit fortunate rebirth

Post by 3z42j »

If a person lives a good life, harms no one and obeys the ten commandments strictly - would they be subject to a fortunate rebirth despite never having knowledge of the noble eight fold path and them being convinced in their faith in the religion of Christianity?
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Do persons for instance Christians merit fortunate rebir

Post by Modus.Ponens »

3z42j wrote:If a person lives a good life, harms no one and obeys the ten commandments strictly - would they be subject to a fortunate rebirth despite never having knowledge of the noble eight fold path and them being convinced in their faith in the religion of Christianity?
Probably yes. The 10 commandments include: 1- no killing; 2- no stealing; 3- No adultery; 4- no lying. The only thing missing from the 5 precepts of buddhism is no alchohol and drugs and no killing animals. I think that in theory it's very likely that a christian that adheres strictly to the 10 commandments will not be reborn in lower realms. However, the Buddha said that the precise workings of karma are impossible to figure out, so we can never know for sure the answer to that question.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta
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mikenz66
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Re: Do persons for instance Christians merit fortunate rebir

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi 3z42j.

Certainly. The development of generosity, kindness, meditative attainments, etc, is not unique to Buddhism, and those are the causes for better rebirth. The ultimate goal of Buddhism is an escape from rebirth. And, of course, according to Buddhist doctrine, that requires the entire Noble Eightfold Path, including the unique wisdom, which revolves around insights into not-self and dependent origination.

Tolerance and Diversity by Bhikkhu Bodhi
To the extent that a religion proposes sound ethical principles and can promote to some degree the development of wholesome qualities such as love, generosity, detachment and compassion, it will merit in this respect the approbation of Buddhists. These principles advocated by outside religious systems will also conduce to rebirth in the realms of bliss — the heavens and the divine abodes. Buddhism by no means claims to have unique access to these realms, but holds that the paths that lead to them have been articulated, with varying degrees of clarity, in many of the great spiritual traditions of humanity. While the Buddhist will disagree with the belief structures of other religions to the extent that they deviate from the Buddha's Dhamma, he will respect them to the extent that they enjoin virtues and standards of conduct that promote spiritual development and the harmonious integration of human beings with each other and with the world.
:anjali:
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Re: Do persons for instance Christians merit fortunate rebir

Post by Mkoll »

This is very true and throws a monkey wrench into the machinations of soothsaying:
Modus.Ponens wrote:However, the Buddha said that the precise workings of karma are impossible to figure out, so we can never know for sure the answer to that question.
See the following sutta (click the link to read it in full) for evidence of this:
MN 136 wrote:6. "Ananda, there are four kinds of persons existing in the world. What four?

(i) "Here some person kills living beings, takes what is not given, misconducts himself in sexual desires, speaks falsehood, speaks maliciously, speaks harshly, gossips, is covetous, is ill-willed, and has wrong view.[4] On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the states of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell.

(ii) "But here some person kills living beings... and has wrong view. On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination, in the heavenly world.

(iii) "Here some person abstains from killing living beings, from taking what is not given, from misconduct in sexual desires, from false speech, from malicious speech, from harsh speech, from gossip, he is not covetous, is not ill-willed, and has right view.[5] On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination, in the heavenly world.

(iv) "But here some person abstains from killing living beings... and has right view. On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the states of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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martinfrank
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Re: Do persons for instance Christians merit fortunate rebir

Post by martinfrank »

Do we know whether some Christian / Muslim / Taoist / Shinto mystics became Pacceka Buddhas?
The Noble Eightfold Path: Proposed to all, imposed on none.
whynotme
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Re: Do persons for instance Christians merit fortunate rebir

Post by whynotme »

martinfrank wrote:Do we know whether some Christian / Muslim / Taoist / Shinto mystics became Pacceka Buddhas?
At least at this point we know no Pacceka Buddha. Can Pacceka Buddha exist while the teaching of the Sammasam Buddha still exists?
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Re: Do persons for instance Christians merit fortunate rebir

Post by santa100 »

Ven Bodhi's note from "In the Buddha's Words":
A paccekabuddha is one who, like a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha, attains enlightenment without the guidance of a teacher, but unlike a Buddha is unable to guide others to enlightenment. According to commentarial tradition, paccekabuddhas do not arise while the teaching of a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha exists in the world but only in the periods between the arising of Buddhas.
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martinfrank
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Re: Do persons for instance Christians merit fortunate rebir

Post by martinfrank »

santa100 wrote:Ven Bodhi's note from "In the Buddha's Words":
A paccekabuddha is one who, like a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha, attains enlightenment without the guidance of a teacher, but unlike a Buddha is unable to guide others to enlightenment. According to commentarial tradition, paccekabuddhas do not arise while the teaching of a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha exists in the world but only in the periods between the arising of Buddhas.
Do the commentators know something about Pacceka Buddhas which we don't know?

How do you call a saint who stumbles upon Truth without having heard the Dhamma?

I guess it is difficult for Buddhists to accept that Pacceka Buddhas are not Buddhists.
The Noble Eightfold Path: Proposed to all, imposed on none.
Sanjay PS
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Re: Do persons for instance Christians merit fortunate rebir

Post by Sanjay PS »

One one side of the shore there are those who do not believe in a self/soul or an almighty ( like the ignorant me ) , but their actions and thoughts are more or less contradictory in actually being attached to a delusion of a self .

On the other side of the shore there are those who do believe in a self/soul and a god almighty , but their thoughts and action speak to the contradictory of a self . They are selfless in serving , and in little caring of their own discomforts , as like Mother Teresa and a good many others.

And then there are the others who realize and understand and that there are no shores and sides, and diligently live a life such, both in letter as well in spirit ...............

The second and third are undoubtedly fortunate :smile:

sanjay
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The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

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Mkoll
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Re: Do persons for instance Christians merit fortunate rebir

Post by Mkoll »

martinfrank wrote:Do we know whether some Christian / Muslim / Taoist / Shinto mystics became Pacceka Buddhas?
No.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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dhammacoustic
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Re: Do persons for instance Christians merit fortunate rebir

Post by dhammacoustic »

3z42j wrote:If a person lives a good life, harms no one and obeys the ten commandments strictly - would they be subject to a fortunate rebirth despite never having knowledge of the noble eight fold path and them being convinced in their faith in the religion of Christianity?
No one can say. Best person in the world might have a bad rebirth. Worst person in the world might be born in a heavenly world. Workings of kamma can only be seen by a supreme Buddha, who has unlimited vision into reality. But in the end, if there is no seed, then a tree won't grow. So do good things, and throw them into the sea.
martinfrank wrote:Do we know whether some Christian / Muslim / Taoist / Shinto mystics became Pacceka Buddhas?
I read about this Ahmad al-Badawi, was born in Morocco in 596 AC, lived in Tanta, Egpyt. If what they write about him is true, then he covered his face with a veil his whole life. One day one of his disciples begs him to see his face, the moment al-Badawi uncovers the veil, the disciple dies. It is said that he spent his whole life on a roof, sitting on his knees. And this another one day he starts staring at the skies and lasts like that for 40 days, standing. There's all these stories about him in many old Arabic books. I've also seen a documentary about him on TV, apparently he looks something like this;

Image

I've read some of his teachings, you could say that they are almost compatible with Buddhism. It's just that his delusion of islam/Allah kinda breaks my interest. Right now i don't know if these kind of people are self-awakened, or deluded.
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Kusala
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Re: Do persons for instance Christians merit fortunate rebir

Post by Kusala »

martinfrank wrote:
santa100 wrote:Ven Bodhi's note from "In the Buddha's Words":
A paccekabuddha is one who, like a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha, attains enlightenment without the guidance of a teacher, but unlike a Buddha is unable to guide others to enlightenment. According to commentarial tradition, paccekabuddhas do not arise while the teaching of a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha exists in the world but only in the periods between the arising of Buddhas.
Do the commentators know something about Pacceka Buddhas which we don't know?

How do you call a saint who stumbles upon Truth without having heard the Dhamma?

I guess it is difficult for Buddhists to accept that Pacceka Buddhas are not Buddhists.
We would have to assume that a Christian saint, a Muslim saint, a Buddhist saint, etc. are all searching for the same "truth".
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
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seeker242
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Re: Do persons for instance Christians merit fortunate rebir

Post by seeker242 »

I would say if the precepts are followed, even if they are never taken or even known about, that would definitely still create conditions favorable to a fortunate rebirth.
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martinfrank
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Re: Do persons for instance Christians merit fortunate rebir

Post by martinfrank »

Kusala wrote: We would have to assume that a Christian saint, a Muslim saint, a Buddhist saint, etc. are all searching for the same "truth".
Maybe it is much more a technical thing. Whoever makes meditation his or her main focus will advance through the same stages even if the experiences cannot be explained in Christian or Muslim terms. If you meditate intensely, progress becomes a challenge and you ask yourself every day "is there something beyond this?" I believe this challenge is the same for people from all traditions.

That's why teachers of other traditions may be able to help us overcome obstacles in our practice even though we belong to different sects or even different religions.
The Noble Eightfold Path: Proposed to all, imposed on none.
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Re: Do persons for instance Christians merit fortunate rebir

Post by DNS »

"Another person has practiced the making of merit by giving as well as by moral discipline to a high degree; but he has not undertaken the making of merit by meditation. With the breakup of the body, after death, he will be reborn among humans in a favorable condition. Or he will be reborn in the company of the devas of the Four Great Kings."
Anguttara Nikaya 4.241-243

Note that the passage specifically states a person who is moral, but does not meditate. He/she still goes to heaven. As T Y Lee's great website says, Just be good, anyone can go to heaven.
http://justbegood.net/
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