the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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darvki
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by darvki »

Kenshou wrote:all "fathomings" will be incorrect since beyond conventional convenience the designation "tathagata" or "arahant" is no longer applicable.
So, before liberation, such designations as "puthujjana" are applicable beyond conventional convenience?
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by Kenshou »

kirk5a wrote:If that's all there is, then that's all that could be said to be "deep."
If the Tathagata is not found in any of the aggregates, then how can we take the statement "The tathagata is deep, hard to fathom..." as referring to the aggregates?

I think that, it's merely referring to the difficulty of conceptually working this issue out in words.
darvki wrote:So, before liberation, such designations as "puthujjana" are applicable beyond conventional convenience?
Gasp! No. I'm not implying there is a self which gets destroyed. I think I had something along the lines of this sutta in mind: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'[3]

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'
darvki
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by darvki »

Kenshou wrote:Gasp! No. I'm not implying there is a self which gets destroyed.
Okay. Didn't think so, just wanted to check, as well as bring up the idea that all this unfathomability talk might also be applicable to all sentient beings.
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by rowyourboat »

"Even so, Vaccha, any form... feeling... perception... fabrication... consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form... feeling... perception... fabrication... consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea."
Putajjanas would think of one of the aggregates (his body, his teachings etc) when they think of the tathagatha - because they haven't seen that for the Tathagata all these aggregates have been (in his meditation and practice) been completely wipes clean of attachment (this is MY body), and delusion (this aggregate is Me). The Tathagata would not see a difference (as far as I understand) between his body and that of the rock he is sitting on as far as sense of self goes. His sense of self is wiped out, with wisdom. Furthermore he is 'destroyed the root' in terms of avijja/lobha. They have lost their 'life' -their ability to cause a strong impact on the mind- 'made like a palmyra stump', no more craving for them, so no more profileration of the aggregates - 'deprived the condition for development', and with the absence of avijja/lobha, even though they are arising now due to past avijja/lobha, there will be no rebirth-'not destined for future arising'. I would add that the Tathagata has seen the non-arising of the aggregates as well, when the fetters are broken, but that might be too controversial, but would add to intensify the meaning of the above verse. So we have a situation where someone has seen the utter destruction of everything that we would normally use to denote a 'person', yet something still exists. The Tathagata is truly untraceable, hard to understand. It can only be understood through direct experience, but perhaps never adequately conceptualised, as Kirk suggested. I guess this is applicable to a lot of meditative experiences, like jhana etc.

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the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Wizard in the Forest »

If Nibbana is unconditioned is it permanent?
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darvki
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Re: Nibbana permanent or impermanent?

Post by darvki »

It isn't any "thing" to be permanent or impermanent so I think the question is invalid.
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Re: Nibbana permanent or impermanent?

Post by Ben »

Dear WITF

Nibbana being unconditioned it is beyond the realm of dukkha and anicca. As a dhamma, it remains anatta. Nibbana being unconditioned it is beyond comprehension of the conditioned mind.
With great respect to your line of enquiry I recommend that you concentrate on that which is germane to liberation. Life being fickle, it can end at any time.
May you realize Nibbana, yourself, in this life.
kind regards

Ben
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Nibbana permanent or impermanent?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

I think its a valid question, albeit not a very fruitful one.
Dhuva means permanent, stable, fixed, reliable, sure. The Buddha has pointed out the path to attain the unborn, unconditioned, and permanent nibbāna.

Dhuvagāmin leading to permanence, i. e. Nibbāna S iv.370.
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Re: Nibbana permanent or impermanent?

Post by Akuma »

Wizard in the Forest wrote:If Nibbana is unconditioned is it permanent?
Not sure if I interprete this correctly but you are assuming that it has to be permanent because its unconditioned? Thats not necessarily the case. Unconditioned here means that its conditioned by absences, namely the absence of ignorance etc. Its called this way because in indian philosophy absences as being non-entities have no conditions. Space for example is also unconditioned based on the same idea, being spatial absence of rupa.
In the same way tho the absence of coca-cola in a glass is unconditioned but not necessarily permanent.
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by pulga »

Hello rowyourboat,
rowyourboat wrote: Ven Nanananda said:'the mirage (even though a mirage), exists (for it to be perceived)'.
I've been thinking lately about the Ven. Ñanananda's ideas regarding námarúpa, and would like to know from where this quote came. Is it from Magic of the Mind , Nibbana Sermons, or is it from some other of his writings?

Thanks,
pulga
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meindzai
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Re: Nibbana permanent or impermanent?

Post by meindzai »

I tend to think of it as "not-impermanent" but try not to bother with any conception beyond that. I believe in Abhidhamma it is considered permanent.

-M
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Re: Nibbana permanent or impermanent?

Post by Parth »

Such questions need to be practised for (i.e. practising vipassana and other parts of the noble eight fold path), everything else is a worthless speculation. Lets not waste time there.

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dharmaamrita
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by dharmaamrita »

i think, this the most 'eye-opening' topics of the Buddha. The question of annata(anatma), No-self. The question of annhilation arises due to our clinging of the concept of self. But to a Tathagata it does not apply because the arahant only sees cause and effect in this sea of impermanence. There is no self. Our form gets broken down and converted to something else. The hydrogen, carbon atoms that make your body was once the atoms of maybe a star or a plant. The feelings are there dependent on something. So are perceptions, sankharas and vinnana(vijnana or consciousness). This is an aggregate of these 5 things. It is a changing impermanent aggregate. The arahant aware of this sees no self, thus the concept of annhilation does not apply. Metta...and may Sati be tirelessly awake
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by rowyourboat »

pulga wrote:Hello rowyourboat,
rowyourboat wrote: Ven Nanananda said:'the mirage (even though a mirage), exists (for it to be perceived)'.
I've been thinking lately about the Ven. Ñanananda's ideas regarding námarúpa, and would like to know from where this quote came. Is it from Magic of the Mind , Nibbana Sermons, or is it from some other of his writings?

Thanks,
pulga
Hi Pulga

Sorry for the delay- I hope you are still around- yes, it is from one of the nibbana sermons- can't pin point which one because there are so many- possibly one of the earlier sermons.

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rowyourboat
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by rowyourboat »

dharmaamrita wrote:i think, this the most 'eye-opening' topics of the Buddha. The question of annata(anatma), No-self. The question of annhilation arises due to our clinging of the concept of self. But to a Tathagata it does not apply because the arahant only sees cause and effect in this sea of impermanence. There is no self. Our form gets broken down and converted to something else. The hydrogen, carbon atoms that make your body was once the atoms of maybe a star or a plant. The feelings are there dependent on something. So are perceptions, sankharas and vinnana(vijnana or consciousness). This is an aggregate of these 5 things. It is a changing impermanent aggregate. The arahant aware of this sees no self, thus the concept of annhilation does not apply. Metta...and may Sati be tirelessly awake
I agree, completely!
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