the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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Coëmgenu
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Coëmgenu »

Santi253 wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote: True, but Mun is more of an outlier, not a typical, mainstream theravada view.
This is something I don't know a whole lot about. Does the typical Theravada Buddhist, in traditionally Theravadin countries, believe that the Buddha remains present in the world?
One might be persuaded to look at it this way: when my partner asked his Thai Buddhist hairdresser about reincarnation, he talked about the soul flying out of one body and into a fetus in a womb somewhere else. Very literal. This is what would be called a "folksy" dhamma-understanding around here, as loaded a term as that is.

If such a thing is believed by some, then Buddha remaining in the world being a belief that is similarly believed is open game how I see it.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Santi253 »

Coëmgenu wrote: If such a thing is believed by some, then Buddha remaining in the world being a belief that is similarly believed is open game how I see it.
What I believe is, after the Buddha's parinirvana, it's the Dharmakaya, the Dharma-body of all buddhas, which remains active in the world:
The Buddha is equated with the Dhamma:
... and the Buddha comforts him, "Enough, Vakkali. Why do you want to see this filthy body? Whoever sees the Dhamma sees me; whoever sees me sees the Dhamma."[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trikaya#Origins
When the Lotus Sutra refers to the Eternal Buddha, and says that all other buddhas are manifestations of him, I believe that's referring to the Dharmakaya.
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino »

Santi253 wrote:Does the typical Theravada Buddhist, in traditionally Theravadin countries, believe that the Buddha remains present in the world?
Buddha is no longer visible to gods or men.
"All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine." -Socrates
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by DNS »

Coëmgenu wrote:
Santi253 wrote: This is something I don't know a whole lot about. Does the typical Theravada Buddhist, in traditionally Theravadin countries, believe that the Buddha remains present in the world?
One might be persuaded to look at it this way: when my partner asked his Thai Buddhist hairdresser about reincarnation, he talked about the soul flying out of one body and into a fetus in a womb somewhere else. Very literal. This is what would be called a "folksy" dhamma-understanding around here, as loaded a term as that is.

If such a thing is believed by some, then Buddha remaining in the world being a belief that is similarly believed is open game how I see it.
Open game for shooting that view down? :guns:
Zom wrote:
The Blessed One would never say that on the dissolution of the body the saint who has lost all depravity is annihilated,
perishes, and does not exist after death.
Yes, because they are all there in nibbana, drinking beer and having fun 8-) :toast:
:lol:
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Coëmgenu »

Santi253 wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote: If such a thing is believed by some, then Buddha remaining in the world being a belief that is similarly believed is open game how I see it.
What I believe is, after the Buddha's parinirvana, it's the Dharmakaya, the Dharma-body of all buddhas, which remains active in the world:
The Buddha is equated with the Dhamma:
... and the Buddha comforts him, "Enough, Vakkali. Why do you want to see this filthy body? Whoever sees the Dhamma sees me; whoever sees me sees the Dhamma."[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trikaya#Origins
When the Lotus Sutra refers to the Eternal Buddha, and says that all other buddhas are manifestations of him, I believe that's referring to the Dharmakaya.
Well, one can believe that, and even do it while calling themselves a Theravāda Buddhist, even more controversially, one can believe that and do it while being a Theravāda Buddhist technically (like my partner's hairdresser, who I am sure believed that thing about reincarnation to be "orthodox" Theravāda Dhamma, out of sheer lack of knowledge, not being especially religious but maintaining a devotional piety), as can anyone else, but you also have to be prepared for this:
David N. Snyder wrote:Open game for shooting that view down? :guns:
Because, at the end of the day, there is a reason why some things get called "folk Buddhism" within a tradition, for the simple reason that many people hold incoherent views or contradictory views regarding their tradition, having never actually looked at it critically, having learned the fundamentals as an infant and having lost interest afterwards. When this stereotype gets extended, it becomes a problem, but anyone can see that there is a certain amount of truth to the fact that this occasionally happens.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Santi253 »

cappuccino wrote:
Santi253 wrote:Does the typical Theravada Buddhist, in traditionally Theravadin countries, believe that the Buddha remains present in the world?
Buddha is no longer visible to gods or men.
I am interested in learning what Theravadins popularly believe in traditionally Theravadin countries.
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Coëmgenu »

Santi253 wrote:Theravadins
Then your first task, if you will forgive me to make such a suggestion, might be to figure out how you are going to define that and how that will effect the results that your survey would yield.

For instance, does this refer to everyone who might possibly self-identify as a "Theravāda" Buddhist (regardless of if they would natively use any terminology that resembles the phrase "Theravāda Buddhist")? If such a thing is the case, all manner of view, corresponding and non-corresponding to what is considered "Theravāda" by anyone, might be represented. Or does
Santi253 wrote:Theravadins
refer to "practitioners of X amount of dedication, rendered observable by looking for Y practices", the increasing value of X presumably leading to greater pockets of homogenous views, by virtue of those survey actually having an opinion on the matter, necessarily, given the sheer range of the first definition of "Theravādin".
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Santi253 »

Asking what happens to a deceased person who had attained Nirvana is a loaded question. It’s like asking an innocent man if he’s stopped beating his wife. If Nirvana is the Ultimate Truth, there can be nothing after it:
The Buddha was often asked this question of the state of a Tathagata, here meaning a Buddha or Arahat, after death: could it be said that he ‘is’ (eternalism), that he ‘is not’ (annihilationism), that he ‘both is and is not’, or that he ‘neither is nor is not’?

These were part of a small set of ‘undetermined questions’ which the Buddha set aside without answering (S.IV.373–400). One reason for this was that he saw speculating over them as a time-wasting diversion from spiritual practice.

When one monk told him that he would leave the Sangha unless he was given answers to these questions, the Buddha gave a simile to show how foolish he was: if a man was shot by a poisoned arrow but refused to let a doctor cure him until he knew everything about who shot the arrow, and what the arrow was made of, such a man would soon die (M.I.426–31; BW.230–3; SB.168–72).

The Buddha then said that he had clearly explained dukkha (suffering, dissatisfaction) and the way beyond it, but that asking the undetermined questions was not connected with, nor conducive to, Nirvana. This accords with his saying that he taught only what was both true and spiritually useful (M.I.395).

Besides these practical considerations, the Buddha also clearly saw the undetermined questions as having a misconception built into them. Like the innocent man who was asked ‘have you stopped beating your wife?’, he could not rightly reply either ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to them.
http://buddhist-world.com/four-realitie ... g/nirvana/
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino »

Santi253 wrote:If Nirvana is the Ultimate Truth, there can be nothing after it
parinibbāna is after it, not annihilation
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Santi253 »

cappuccino wrote:
Santi253 wrote:If Nirvana is the Ultimate Truth, there can be nothing after it
parinibbāna is after it, not annihilation
Yes, but what is parinirvana? Who or what exists in it, and in what form?
People often ask: What is there after Nirvana? This question cannot arise,
because Nirvana is the Ultimate Truth. If it is Ultimate, there can be nothing after it.
If there is anything after Nirvana, then that will be the Ultimate Truth and not
Nirvana.

A monk named Radha put this question to the Buddha in a different form:
'For what purpose (or end) is Nirvana?' This question presupposes something after
Nirvana, when it postulates some purpose or end for it. So the Buddha answered: 'O
Radha, this question could not catch its limit (i.e., it is beside the point). One lives the
holy life with Nirvana as its final plunge (into the Absolute Truth), as its goal, as its
ultimate end.'
https://sites.google.com/site/whatbuddh ... /chapter-4
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino »

Santi253 wrote:Yes, but what is parinirvana? Who or what exists in it?
We're already selfless so how do you exist? If you're not who nor what.

Well… you may not be this or that, but this and that is still present.
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Santi253 »

cappuccino wrote:
Santi253 wrote:Yes, but what is parinirvana? Who or what exists in it?
We're already selfless so how do you exist? If you're not who nor what.

Well… you may not be this or that, but this and that is still present.
I don't like to speculate too much about these things. I try to accept that Nirvana is the Ultimate Truth or Ultimate Reality, rather than annihilation, and leave it at that.
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino »

Rebirth is due to lust.
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The consciousness of Nibbana after death (Parinibbana)

Post by Ranmaru Oumi »

Hello, I know that after the Buddha's death the Buddha went into Parinibbana. How should we imagine Parinibbana? Is this something like an empty dimension and is the Buddha aware to this empty dimension?
May all livings attain Nibbana.
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Re: The consciousness of Nibbana after death (Parinibbana)

Post by cappuccino »

"There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; … neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor stasis; neither passing away nor arising: without stance, without foundation, without support. This, just this, is the end of stress."

— Ud 8.1
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