the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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Zenny
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Zenny »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:46 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:33 am
cappuccino wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:07 am

where has this got you?
The wisdom to deconstruct linguistic and philosophical nonsense. Freedom!
hence trouble for us
Rather than trouble,why not look at me as someone to grapple with.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
dharmavital
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by dharmavital »

Hi friends,

The Buddha teaches that we must follow the three trainings: wisdom, moral virtue, and meditation. This trainings help us to attain awakening.

We know the teachings through language. If (as I understand) nibbana is beyond this, then my question is answered.

In fact, for me is enough to understand that:

1) nibbana (in its whole sense) is beyond reasoning.
2) nibbana is the end of suffering
3) nibbana is peace
4) nibbana is the end of samsara

Regards,
Jorge :anjali:
alicem
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by alicem »

My original viewpoint was that nibbana-without-remainder was a meditation state where the Buddhas and arhats didn't interact with the world anymore. That seems to have been wrong-view, and I'm not sure if there's any view which could be considered right.
Anuradha Sutta wrote:"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"
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Gwi
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Gwi »

Nibbānå = absolute immortality


If u ded with sankyojanā,
Ur not immortal.

Nibbānå like as "opposite beach",
Nibbānå is a very happy "place".
bpallister
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by bpallister »

Do you think I will reach Nibbana, Gwi?
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Again, all natural processes, including the dynamics of kamma, are possible because things are impermanent and insubstantial. This fact may be at odds with how people commonly feel. Yet if things were permanent, stable, and possessed a solid core, none of the above laws of nature would hold true. Also, these laws confirm that there is no first cause for things, no creator God.

Conditioned things arise dependent on causes and they are interrelated; they have no fixed core. A bed, to take a simple example, is composed of various parts which have been assembled following a prescribed plan; there exists no essential substance of the bed apart from these components. Taking these components apart, the bed no longer exists; there exists merely a notion of ‘bed’, which is a thought in the mind. Even particular notions do not exist in isolation, but are connected to other concepts. The notion of a ‘bed’ only has significance in relation to the notions of ‘lying down’, a ‘level plane’, ‘position’, ‘space’, etc.

People’s awareness and understanding of particular designations is linked to their understanding of the relational factors of that particular entity. But when recognition of the object has been made, habitual attachment in the form of craving and grasping leads the person to be convinced of the object’s substantiality. The object is separated from its relational context and true discernment of the object is obstructed. Selfishness and possessiveness come to the fore.

As mentioned above, things do not have a ‘first cause’ or original source. Tracing back the causes and conditions ad infinitum, one still cannot find a first cause. There is a strong impulse in people, however, to seek an original source for phenomena, and as a consequence they assign undue importance to particular entities. This impulse to find a source conflicts with the truth, and the notions associated with whatever is taken as a source become a form of ‘perceptual aberration’ (saññā-vipallāsa).

People abandon their inquiry into causality too soon. A correct investigation would go on to inquire into the cause of what is being taken as the source and conclude that this line of inquiry is endless. Things exist in mutual dependence, and therefore there is no ‘first cause’. Indeed, one can pose the question: Why is it necessary for things to originate from a primal source? {163}

The belief in a creator God is equally at odds with nature. This belief stems from the observation and common assumption that human beings are responsible for producing things like tools, implements and crafts; therefore, everything in the universe must also have a creator.

The logic of this reasoning, however, is flawed. People separate the act of production from the natural context of conditionality. In fact, human production is only one aspect of conditionality. In the act of production, humans are one factor among many in a conditional process, all of which combine to reach a desired result. The distinction here from a purely material process is that mental factors (e.g. ‘desire’) accompanied by intention also play a role. But these mental factors must combine with other factors in a conditional process to bring about a desired end. For example, when building a house, a person influences other factors to bring about completion. If humans were above the conditional process, they could build a house out of thin air, but this is impossible. Creation, therefore, is not separate from conditionality, and since all conditioned things exist as parts of an ongoing causal process, a creator God plays no role at any stage.

Another line of reasoning that contradicts the truth and is similar to the idea of a ‘first cause’ is the idea that in the beginning there was nothing. This idea is connected to and stems from a belief in self: the identification with composite parts that comprise an individual form. A person establishes a notion of self and attaches to this notion. In addition, he may believe that originally this self did not exist, but rather came into being at a later time.

This limited way of thinking, of getting stuck on an object and not having a fluid outlook on things, is an attachment to conventional labels and a misunderstanding of conventional truth. It lies behind the need to find a first cause or creator God as the source of all phenomena, giving rise to such conflicting ideas as how can something immortal produce something that is mortal or how can transient things spring from the eternal? In relation to the causal, interrelated flow of phenomena, there is no need to speak of an enduring or a temporary ‘self’, unless one is referring to ‘conventional truth’ (sammati-sacca). Again, one can ask why is it necessary to have nothing before something can exist?

In any case, speculation on such topics as a ‘first cause’ and a creator God is considered to be of little value in Buddha-Dhamma because it is irrelevant to the practical application of the teachings for bringing about true spiritual wellbeing. Even though these philosophical considerations can lead to a broad worldview, as shown above, they can be passed over since a focus on practical application leads to the same benefits. Attention here, therefore, should be on applying the teachings to everyday life. {164}

As mentioned earlier, human beings are comprised of the five aggregates. Nothing exists separately from these aggregates, dwelling either inside them or out. Nothing owns or controls the aggregates and governs life. The five aggregates function according to Dependent Origination; they are part of the interrelated flow of conditions. All of the components in this process are unstable; they all arise and pass away, and they condition further arising and decay. The interdependency of the components enables there to be a causal process and continual stream of formations.

4.4 Relational Context of Dependent Origination - 248

https://buddhadhamma.github.io/includes ... dhamma.pdf
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cappuccino
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:10 pm Nothing exists separately from these aggregates
why are they coming to this conclusion?
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:30 pm
Lucas Oliveira wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:10 pm Nothing exists separately from these aggregates
why are they coming to this conclusion?
Strange ..

even because it's different from what he said above, about having nothing before ..
Again, one can ask why is it necessary to have nothing before something can exist?
but I think he's just talking about aggregates

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by shoenhad »

DNS wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:55 am A musician could have right view and just not be an anagami or arahant yet, he or she could just still be in lay life and have no requirement or will to give up those pleasures or livelihood yet. Everyone has their vices, if it's not music, it might be movies, shows, other entertainment, other arts, sports, fine dining, etc.; unless they are an anagami or arahant where those cravings have naturally ended.
Respectfully disagree. This seems to me to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater and an overly puritan view. Sense experience does not equal sense desire. There is nothing inherently problematic with sense experience and the pleasure that might accompany that whether it be fine dining or music. You could argue that that is part of the fruit of not having any craving anymore. One does not run the risk of attachment when engaging in these matters

Renunciation is in the mind. Outward renunciation may help someone along the path to help bring into view the nature of sense experience but that does not mean that ultimately one withdraws from sense experience. If there even is such a thing. If an anagami or arahant were to live in a circumstance where an abundance of sensory input is simply part of the flow of life why withdraw from it? This would appear to be more akin to aversion. Also why would it be different if he/she were to live in some remote mountain location? You could argue that perhaps there is a craving for the view of the surroundings or the silence. There is no escape of sense experience unless maybe the remainder of one’s life would be spent in a sensory deprivation tank. Given that there is no escape why would one location or experience be preferable over another or even given up when there is no craving of any kind?

Same goes for 'socializing' with other people/friends which I saw you mention somewhere else as well. You can still engage or initiate communication about worldly matters and have speech and mind be in line with the dhamma. It’s not automatically relegated to the realm of idle chatter and gossip. Conversely one can talk about the dhamma but that does not make it dhammic per se.

When it comes to the arts I simply can’t subscribe to the orientation where the highest potential of human realization is devoid of these expressions. I think qualities such as inspiration, creativity, curiosity and expression through the senses are a fundamental part of the fabric of the human spirit and not something to ultimately be ‘transcended’ or departed from. I don’t equate those qualities with sense craving in the more ordinary sense. Does not mean one can’t live without but in my opinion it also doesn’t mean that it inevitably will be abandoned once a certain spiritual maturity is reached. I think nietschze had a point: ‘Without music life would be a mistake. I would only believe in a God who knew how to dance’.
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cappuccino
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino »

shoenhad wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:03 pm I think Nietzsche had a point: ‘Without music life would be a mistake. I would only believe in a God who knew how to dance’.
note that, in the discipline of the noble ones, dancing counts as insanity.
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Rahula
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Rahula »

Would you be able to teach gravity to a dog?
We are no different when it comes to Nibbana .

Nibbana is something you understand by achieving - not by talking about.
There are certain things in this universe that we can't understand just by talking or debating about it.
One must practice Dhamma & achieve it to understand Nibbana.
Someone who didn't achieve it wouldn't understand it as he doesn't have the capacity to grasp it.

Thant's how I've been taught and how I understand it.
May you be happy, healthy & successful in everything you do! :anjali:
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino »

Rahula wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:19 am Nibbana is something you understand by achieving - not by talking about.
Nirvana is cool and peaceful


Sort of like air conditioning
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Rahula
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Rahula »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 7:36 pm
Rahula wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:19 am Nibbana is something you understand by achieving - not by talking about.
Nirvana is cool and peaceful


Sort of like air conditioning
The flame goes away when the wood is over.

Where did the flame go?
To the North?
To the South?
To the East?
To the West?
Last edited by Rahula on Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cappuccino
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino »

Rahula wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:37 pm The flame goes away
cool and peaceful
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Alex123
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Alex123 »

Rahula wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:37 pm The flame goes away when the wood is over.

Where did the flame go?
To the North?
To the South?
To the East?
To the West?
The simile isn't 100% as clear cut.

1st) If the past, future, and present exist (ala "Block Universe") - then the flame exists. Just at certain locations of time.

2nd) If there are more than 3 or 4 dimensions, the flame could go "there". Our perception is limited to about 3 dimensions.
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