the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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cappuccino
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino »

There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who maintain a doctrine of percipient immortality and who on sixteen grounds proclaim the self to survive percipient after death. And owing to what, with reference to what, do these honorable recluses and brahmins proclaim their views?
this is about the self, not life after death
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GERRY
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by GERRY »

It can be within the extra common understandings of DO, either within the Commentaries or through instructors, for illustration, Ven Thanissaro, the situation i might have figured you might combat that the movements on rebirth and kamma are normal methodologies for approximating parts of the DO motion.
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Jerafreyr »

cappuccino wrote: you're trying to justify annihilation

while missing the difference between no self & not self
If all is not self why clutch to the mountain of nothingness?
There is no self but the imputation of "I am," which is like the effect of a magic trick; the awe of ignorance.

There is no difference between not self and no self, or rather I see no evidence of such.
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cappuccino
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino »

Jerafreyr wrote: There is no difference between not self and no self, or rather I see no evidence of such.
OK
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Jerafreyr wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:26 pm
cappuccino wrote: you're trying to justify annihilation

while missing the difference between no self & not self
If all is not self why clutch to the mountain of nothingness?
There is no self but the imputation of "I am," which is like the effect of a magic trick; the awe of ignorance.

There is no difference between not self and no self, or rather I see no evidence of such.
:goodpost:





Agreed with the above:
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun May 12, 2019 5:29 pm
seeker242 wrote: Sun May 12, 2019 11:19 am Zen masters of old said the same. "No self, not self, without self", they are all meant to mean the same thing anyway. :meditate:
:heart:



Volo wrote: Sun May 12, 2019 1:06 pm BTW, can somebody briefly explain to me the difference "no self" vs. "not self" (i mean philosophy behind it)? I don't find distinction "An = not. Na = no" satisfactory, but before addressing it I would like to know what is the theory behind "no self"/"not self".
There is no difference, in right-view. The difference only exists in those who want to make.
Ven. Sujato pointed out:
... the distinction between “not-self” and “no-self” is not found in Pali ...
a theoretical distinction that has no place in the Dhamma.
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/on ... gies/11836






I'm Ok with both "No self" and "Not self", as long as if/unless:
  • Ok, If "no self" is used in non-anihilistionist sense.
    Ven. Buddhadasa [not quibble here :smile: ] clearly explained this. He rejected the concept of “No-self” when it is used in the view of nihilism or Annihilationism. I wrote that in "prequisites" to understand Ven. Buddhadasa's "no self" and Not "no self".
    viewtopic.php?p=507614#p507613
  • Ok, Unless "Not self" is used under the shadow of eternalist/partial eternalist sense.
    • Furthermore, there will be such notions like "there is a third thing called self or whatever, in addition to five aggregates and nibbana".
    • And, furthermore, there will be strangest interpretations like:
      We'll know, on the one hand, what's inconstant (aniccam), stressful (dukkham), and not-self (anatta); and on the other hand, what's uncommon, i.e., niccam — what's constant and true; sukham — true happiness, termed niramisa-sukha; and atta — the self. The eye of the mind can know both sides and let go both ways. It's attached neither to what's inconstant, stressful and not-self; nor to what's constant (niccam), good (sukham), and right (atta). It can let these things go, in line with their true nature.
      https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/tha ... peace.html Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation of teaching of Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo
    • And, in addition to that, there will be such writings like:
      auto wrote: Sun May 12, 2019 12:59 pm ...
      Without discovering the self you won't ever ever ever get to heart and from heart to abdomen and more..other words for you guys hello old age and sicknesses you can't heal out
      ...
.


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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by sentinel »

No self = No A
Not self = Not A
If no A mean there is nothing
If not A it could be something


There is No unconditional self
However , there is unconditional nibbana
You always gain by giving
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

sentinel wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:54 am No self = No A
Not self = Not A
If no A mean there is nothing
If not A it could be something


There is No unconditional self
However , there is unconditional nibbana
:goodpost:



And, ultimately, there's No such thing as Conditional self either.



And this, by Ven. Sujato:
... the distinction between “not-self” and “no-self” is not found in Pali ...
a theoretical distinction that has no place in the Dhamma.
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/on ... gies/11836
.


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cappuccino
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino »

the right word is conditioned… not conditional

Nirvana is unconditioned
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Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

Post by confusedlayman »

AdvaitaJ wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 pm Thanks everybody!

Nice to know that others have struggled with this issue as well.

My atheist past was clearly set in the frame "when you're dead, you're gone". But now, developing some initial confidence in the dhamma is causing cracks in what had been a very simple and straightforward end-of-life scenario. What I've been able to distill from the replies essentially equates to ambiguity within an enigma for a question that, being honest here, amounts to me seeking a way to cling to existence. It would be quite ironic for me, after being such a strident atheist, to put such effort into trying to achieve nibbana if nibbana only equated to what my atheist beliefs produced in the first place!


During ur atheist past, u thought life ends permnently after dead but its just a thought as u cant stop it at will and it can rebirth. If you think nibbana is complete anhilation like state like no feeling, no conciousness, no awareness why be worry about that? If u have no awareness then no suffering and no perception of suffering or fear. Only when u r alive u fear. Anyways parinibbana is not annhilation of self as self dont exist in first place but if u attain parinibbana what u imagine is true like eventhough u wont be aware of it. U can see half water filled glass as half empty or half full so no awareness is seen as shit when u delight in feelings and vice versa. Its better dont delight in feeling as it changes. It cant be uncoinciouss state as if its true buddha would have recommended to undergo high alcholoic drinking which makes one unconciousness and passout. He also spoke of conciousness without surface and also told dont objectify the non objectiveness. Anyways using words to describe state beyond words will mislead so practise nd see for yoursrlf. Even if u fail or die in process of practise, u attain higher realm as backup.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to equate the two, it's just that things can wind up being extremely weird some ways.
:alien:

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Spiny Norman »

cappuccino wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:15 pm

Nirvana is unconditioned
What do you think that means, practically speaking?
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino »

Dinsdale wrote:
cappuccino wrote:
Nirvana is unconditioned
What do you think that means, practically speaking?
Cessation of greed, of hatred and of delusion is the
Unformed, the Unconditioned
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Spiny Norman »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:58 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
cappuccino wrote:
Nirvana is unconditioned
What do you think that means, practically speaking?
Cessation of greed, of hatred and of delusion is the
Unformed, the Unconditioned
That's a bit of a tautology. I was asking what it means to describe something as being unconditioned. Presumably it means being independent of conditions, but what does that entail? It presumably means unchanging, but does it also mean permanent?
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino »

Dinsdale wrote: Presumably it means
unconditioned
2.
not formed or influenced by conditioning
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by bokaratom »

Can this be understood using combinations of words and sentences? The symbols that make up our languages are just finite sets. For all practical purposes all the combinations of those symbols are also finite. The entire collection of every thought and every utterance and every thing written, past present and future, is finite. Part of Buddha's eight fold path is "Right Understanding" but this will include an understanding of the limitations of understanding. Everyone who reads this will reach Nirvana and the effects of it are retroactive, so start enjoying those effects right now! It's a good thing. Enjoy!
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino »

bokaratom wrote: Can this be understood using combinations of words and sentences?
yes, I think so
"All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine." -Socrates
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