Boran kammatthana

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khemindas
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Boran kammatthana

Post by khemindas »

Is somebody know anything about this book? It seems that it is another mystical book connected with Theravada tradition, similar to Vimuttimagga and Yogavacara manual. I found just some information about this book here

http://www.globalbuddhism.org/15/cox14.pdf

May be somebody knows more?
paul
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Re: Boran kammatthana

Post by paul »

Hi Khemindas,

Boran kammatthana is not a book, it's a term referring to the Hindu- influenced approach to practice said to have been common in Thailand pre-1900, at which time the Thai Forest Tradition revival began and which approach has a particular interpretation of the Dhamma which is experiencing attempts at adulteration in some Western quarters, such as denial of the mental hindrances and the function of Right Effort, passive mindfulness and so on, as if parts of the Path structure can be discarded without affecting it's efficacy, which is of course, wrong. People in Asia probably wouldn't be aware of this attack. The book you referenced " Traditional Theravada Meditation and its Modern-Era Suppression", is of interest.

Thanks.
Last edited by paul on Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:06 am, edited 3 times in total.
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khemindas
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Re: Boran kammatthana

Post by khemindas »

paul wrote:Hi Khemindas,

Boran kammatthana is not a book, it's a term referring to the Thai Forest Tradition which has a particular interpretation of the Dhamma which is experiencing attempts at adulteration in some Western quarters, such as denial of the mental hindrances and the function of Right Effort, passive mindfulness and so on, as if parts of the Path structure can be discarded without affecting it's efficacy, which is of course, wrong. People in Asia probably wouldn't be aware of this attack. The book you referenced " Traditional Theravada Meditation and its Modern-Era Supppression", is about this situation and is of interest.

Thanks.
As i understood, mostly it reffers to cambodian tradition. But i am interested in scriptures, which is now out of tradition, like yogavacara manual, vimuttimagga and The Sutta on Understanding Death in the Transmission of
Boran Meditation From Siam to the Kandyan Court like here http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... P_2012.pdf
paul
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Re: Boran kammatthana

Post by paul »

I cannot help with BK, which has Hindu influence with the reference to the chakras and the fact Angkor Wat in Cambodia was originally under Hindu administration.
I can however, help with studying the Visuddhimagga in terms of providing a doctrinal foundation for practice.

Regards.
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vidal.paulo
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Re: Boran kammatthana

Post by vidal.paulo »

paul wrote:Hi Khemindas,

Boran kammatthana is not a book, it's a term referring to the Thai Forest Tradition which has a particular interpretation of the Dhamma which is experiencing attempts at adulteration in some Western quarters, such as denial of the mental hindrances and the function of Right Effort, passive mindfulness and so on, as if parts of the Path structure can be discarded without affecting it's efficacy, which is of course, wrong. People in Asia probably wouldn't be aware of this attack. The book you referenced " Traditional Theravada Meditation and its Modern-Era Supppression", is about this situation and is of interest.

Thanks.

Could you please develop this thought? I'm still beggining and my practice is mainly based on the teachings of the Thai Forest Tradition, I've come across some weird teachings, that's true (mainly from Ajahn Maha Bua), which I discarded completely, but I'm still following the instructions left by Ajahn Chah and some of his disciples (like Ajahn Brahm), I haven't seem nothing about denying mental hindrances or the function of Right Effort or any other part of the Path, do you mean this "attack" was already in course within Ajahn Chah's teachings? If no, care to explicitate the Western quarters that are doing so?

Thank you!
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Mkoll
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Re: Boran kammatthana

Post by Mkoll »

vidal.paulo wrote:
paul wrote:Hi Khemindas,

Boran kammatthana is not a book, it's a term referring to the Thai Forest Tradition which has a particular interpretation of the Dhamma which is experiencing attempts at adulteration in some Western quarters, such as denial of the mental hindrances and the function of Right Effort, passive mindfulness and so on, as if parts of the Path structure can be discarded without affecting it's efficacy, which is of course, wrong. People in Asia probably wouldn't be aware of this attack. The book you referenced " Traditional Theravada Meditation and its Modern-Era Supppression", is about this situation and is of interest.

Thanks.

Could you please develop this thought? I'm still beggining and my practice is mainly based on the teachings of the Thai Forest Tradition, I've come across some weird teachings, that's true (mainly from Ajahn Maha Bua), which I discarded completely, but I'm still following the instructions left by Ajahn Chah and some of his disciples (like Ajahn Brahm), I haven't seem nothing about denying mental hindrances or the function of Right Effort or any other part of the Path, do you mean this "attack" was already in course within Ajahn Chah's teachings? If no, care to explicitate the Western quarters that are doing so?

Thank you!
I concur. I'd be interested to hear your opinion as well.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Re: Boran kammatthana

Post by paul »

http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writ ... lement.pdf

This adulteration emanates mainly from U.S. lay teachers. This is a relevant essay "On Denying Defilement" by Thanissaro Bikkhu and there's more in his book, "Right Mindfulness", although the book may be a bit dense for a beginner. Note Thanissaro's comments about marketing and how it encourages the hindrances: this is one of the biggest enemies to be overcome.

Regards,
paul
Last edited by paul on Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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khemindas
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Re: Boran kammatthana

Post by khemindas »

I find interested information from Rupert Gethin book:

1) "Just what the would-be meditator has to do to get from sitting down cross-legged to the jhanas and beyond is not at all clear. To put it another way, if one set off into the forest with only a copy of the Samannaphala Sutta as one's guide, it is doubtful that one would make very much progress in one's meditation practice. Later systematic accounts of Buddhist meditation that date from perhaps six, seven or eight hundred years later do fill in some of the gaps, but the relative absence of specific instruction in the earlier texts per­haps should be understood in the light of something that is clear in the later texts: namely a view that the effective practice of meditation requires the personal instruction of a teacher. Thus the reason why the earlier texts fail to re­veal very much about just how to practice meditation is not because they are uninterested in such matters, or think they are unimportant, but rather pre­cisely the opposite: they are too important to write down, to be imparted in this way, i.e. textually. This is, after all, a typical ancient Indian attitude to learning: it
should be imparted orally, directly from teacher to pupil. Thus we should un­derstand the earliest texts as indicating the general framework and outlining basic guidelines for the practice of meditation practice, but the specific details
of technique and the actual procedures are matters for the teacher and his pupils. It is only later that some of these get committed to writing, and even then, still in somewhat general terms.

2)An attitude of complete trust in the teacher is conducive to progress in meditation and will encourage the teacher to help the pupil all he can including, for example, teaching him 'secret books' (Vism III 125-27). Whatever the nature of these secret books, the fact that they are mentioned here suggests that the teachings on the practice of meditation presented in texts like the Vimuttimagga and the Visuddhimagga are not intended to be comprehen­sive.1 9 As well as an attitude of trust in the teacher, the texts emphasise the im­portance of approaching the task of meditation in the proper spirit (Vism HI 128-30, IV 27). The secret books (gülha-gantha) are mentioned several times in the Pali commentaries (Ps II 264, Mp V 96; cf. Nidd-a I 112, As 374, Moh (Be) 138). What precisely they were is un­clear. The subcommentaries (Ps-pt (Be) II 198, Mp-t (Be) III 369, Vlsm-mht (Be) I 134) re­fer to books on meditation practice dealing with the truths, dependent arising and so on that are profound and concerned with emptiness, but mentions none by name. Some scholars have speculated about a possible connection with the Khmer 'esoteric' manuals of meditation brought to light by the work of Bizot; see Bechert's introduction to Bizot (1988) and Cousins (1997)


On the Practice of Buddhist Meditation
According to the Pali Nikayas and Exegetical Sources

Dr. Rupert Gethin
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Re: Boran kammatthana

Post by paul »

There is a tendency to look for some "secret" in the Path: the only secret is the threefold division of the Path factors into those of Morality, Concentration and Wisdom (insight, understanding). Many of these academic commentators make the elementary mistake of seeing the path as a linear progression from Right View to Right Concentration and consequently think that jhana is the goal, failing to penetrate the Path's psychological strategy through the interaction of the three divisions, which also form the structure of the three sections in the Visuddhimagga.
Last edited by paul on Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mr Man
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Re: Boran kammatthana

Post by Mr Man »

paul wrote:
Boran kammatthana is not a book, it's a term referring to the Thai Forest Tradition
etc.

Are you sure about that?
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Re: Boran kammatthana

Post by paul »

http://www.uhpress.hawaii.edu/p-274-9780824817817.aspx

No it's not correct and it's been removed, thanks. According to the academic producing the study referred to above, BK practice, which has a strong Hindu influence from early Cambodia, was prevalent in Thailand up to 1900, when the Thai Forest Tradition revival began, producing masters like Ajahn Mun and Ajahn Chah and which began to decline somewhat after the Vietnam War and the centralisation of the sangha in Thailand. Fortunately at about this time many Westerners, including Ajahn Brahm were taking ordination in Thailand and were able to transmit the teachings of the Thai Forest Tradition to the West. This book "Forest Recollections: Wandering Monks in 20th Century Thailand", provides more information about the early and mid stages of the TFT revival.
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Grigoris
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Re: Boran kammatthana

Post by Grigoris »

I decided to revive this thread than start a new one.

I am heading to Thailand at the end of May for the Vesak conference organised by the UN and wondered if anybody knows of any English speaking teachers of boran kamatthana in Bangkok that I can come into contact with.

I have sent some emails to the Wat Ratchasittharam in Thonburi where it is apparently being taught but did not receive a reply.

Is it mainly a Dhammakaya Foundation thing?
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.
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Grigoris
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Re: Boran kammatthana

Post by Grigoris »

No takers at all?
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Boran kammatthana

Post by Dhammanando »

grigoris wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:26 amI am heading to Thailand at the end of May for the Vesak conference organised by the UN and wondered if anybody knows of any English speaking teachers of boran kamatthana in Bangkok that I can come into contact with.
You could try paying a visit to the lay teacher Nai Boonman Poonyathiro at his tektites and fossils shop. His English is reasonable and his daughter Kathi's is fluent. I don't know whether he would call his method "boran kammatthan", but the meditation instruction that I've received from one of his disciples seems to bear at least a family resemblance to it.

House of Gems
1218 Charoenkrung Road
Bangkok

http://houseofgems.info/about_us.php

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Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Grigoris
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Re: Boran kammatthana

Post by Grigoris »

Dhammanando wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:46 am
grigoris wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:26 amI am heading to Thailand at the end of May for the Vesak conference organised by the UN and wondered if anybody knows of any English speaking teachers of boran kamatthana in Bangkok that I can come into contact with.
You could try paying a visit to the lay teacher Nai Boonman Poonyathiro at his tektites and fossils shop. His English is reasonable and his daughter Kathi's is fluent. I don't know whether he would call his method "boran kammatthan", but the meditation instruction that I've received from one of his disciples seems to bear at least a family resemblance to it.

House of Gems
1218 Charoenkrung Road
Bangkok

http://houseofgems.info/about_us.php


Map.gif
Awesome! Thank you Venerable. I'll contact them online too. Thanks again!
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.
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