Is Nibbana and Tathagatha the same?

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SarathW
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Is Nibbana and Tathagatha the same?

Post by SarathW »

Is Nibbana and Tathagatha the same?

It appears above two terms are used with a similar context.
I think they are two different things.
:thinking:

===========
The Buddha answers no to the following 4 questions / possibilities (Majjhima Nikaya 72):
##After death a Tathagata (Buddha) exists: only this is true (The Buddha answers "No")
##After death a Tathagata does not exist: only this is true (The Buddha answers "No")
##After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist: only this is true (The Buddha answers "No")
##After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist: only this is true (The Buddha answers "No")

The Buddha is apparently deliberately being vague since no terms in conventional language can do it justice to describe Nibbana. In other Suttas the Buddha argues against nihilism which suggests that Nibbana is not nihilistic. A number of potential explanations have been provided by Buddhist teachers

http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Nibbana
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
culaavuso
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Re: Is Nibbana and Tathagatha the same?

Post by culaavuso »

SarathW wrote:Is Nibbana and Tathagatha the same?

It appears above two terms are used with a similar context.
I think they are two different things.
The Tathāgata realized the path which leads to Nibbāna.
SN 56.11: Dhamma­cakka­ppavattana Sutta wrote: And what is that Middle Path realized by the Tathagata...? It is the Noble Eightfold path, and nothing else, namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration. This is the Middle Path realized by the Tathagata which gives vision, which gives knowledge, and leads to calm, to insight, to enlightenment, and to Nibbana.
SarathW
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Re: Is Nibbana and Tathagatha the same?

Post by SarathW »

So Can I replace the word Tathagatha with Nibbana?
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
culaavuso
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Re: Is Nibbana and Tathagatha the same?

Post by culaavuso »

SarathW wrote:So Can I replace the word Tathagatha with Nibbana?
It seems hard to make sense of such a suggestion:
AN 4.23: Loka Sutta wrote: Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, utters, or expounds in the interval between the night when he awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment and the night when he attains final nibbāna, all that is just so and not otherwise; therefore he is called the Tathāgata.
Tathāgata appears to refer to an individual, while nibbāna seems to mean extinguishment.
SN 12.20: Paccaya Sutta wrote: Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this regularity of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma, this this/that conditionality. The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth.
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dhammacoustic
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Re: Is Nibbana and Tathagatha the same?

Post by dhammacoustic »

SarathW wrote:So Can I replace the word Tathagatha with Nibbana?
:thinking:
Tathāgata - as far as I know this is how the Buddha refers to himself at times, "thus come, thus gone". Clearly the citta of a tathāgata is in nibbāna.

:namaste:
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Kare
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Re: Is Nibbana and Tathagatha the same?

Post by Kare »

In his commentaries, Buddhaghosa gave several suggestions for analyzing the word "Tathāgata". The most relevant are these three:

1. Tathāgata = tathā + āgata = thus come
2. Tathāgata = tathā + gata = thus gone
3. Tathāgata = tatha + āgata = (to) the truth (reality) come (arrived)

It is a very strange phenomenon that all modern writers seem to be stuck in the two first of those interpretations. Nobody seems to have read or noticed the third one. But when we consider that the Buddha is the one who had reached awakening, the one who saw reality as it is, the only plausible interpretation of the title Tathāgata is the third one: the one who has arrived to the truth or the reality of existence. So let us forget the "thus come or thus gone", with their connotations of the department of silly walks, and see the Tathagata as the one who has arrived to reality.
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Aloka
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Re: Is Nibbana and Tathagatha the same?

Post by Aloka »

Kare wrote: So let us forget the "thus come or thus gone", with their connotations of the department of silly walks, and see the Tathagata as the one who has arrived to reality.
:clap:

Image
daverupa
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Re: Is Nibbana and Tathagatha the same?

Post by daverupa »

Thus-ended-one?
Thus-accomplished-one?

:spy:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
SarathW
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Re: Is Nibbana and Tathagatha the same?

Post by SarathW »

Kare wrote:In his commentaries, Buddhaghosa gave several suggestions for analyzing the word "Tathāgata". The most relevant are these three:

1. Tathāgata = tathā + āgata = thus come
2. Tathāgata = tathā + gata = thus gone
3. Tathāgata = tatha + āgata = (to) the truth (reality) come (arrived)

It is a very strange phenomenon that all modern writers seem to be stuck in the two first of those interpretations. Nobody seems to have read or noticed the third one. But when we consider that the Buddha is the one who had reached awakening, the one who saw reality as it is, the only plausible interpretation of the title Tathāgata is the third one: the one who has arrived to the truth or the reality of existence. So let us forget the "thus come or thus gone", with their connotations of the department of silly walks, and see the Tathagata as the one who has arrived to reality.
The way I understand the word "Tathagata" was used pre Buddhas time.
Many other teachers claimed them as Tatahagata.
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Kare
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Re: Is Nibbana and Tathagatha the same?

Post by Kare »

SarathW wrote:
Kare wrote:In his commentaries, Buddhaghosa gave several suggestions for analyzing the word "Tathāgata". The most relevant are these three:

1. Tathāgata = tathā + āgata = thus come
2. Tathāgata = tathā + gata = thus gone
3. Tathāgata = tatha + āgata = (to) the truth (reality) come (arrived)

It is a very strange phenomenon that all modern writers seem to be stuck in the two first of those interpretations. Nobody seems to have read or noticed the third one. But when we consider that the Buddha is the one who had reached awakening, the one who saw reality as it is, the only plausible interpretation of the title Tathāgata is the third one: the one who has arrived to the truth or the reality of existence. So let us forget the "thus come or thus gone", with their connotations of the department of silly walks, and see the Tathagata as the one who has arrived to reality.
The way I understand the word "Tathagata" was used pre Buddhas time.
Many other teachers claimed them as Tatahagata.
:thinking:
Sources?

That would not be surprising, however. Most teachers would claim to have reached their goal. Many titles at the time of the Buddha were also used for teachers from different school. One example: Both the Buddha and the founder of jainism were called Mahāvira, "great hero". So if Tathāgata was a pre Buddhist title, that would explain why the word is not explained in the suttas. Why waste breath on explaining what everyone already knew? It was only explained in the commentaries, and since Buddhaghosa gave several explanations, without saying which one was right, the real meaning of the word seems to have been forgotten at his time.
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daverupa
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Re: Is Nibbana and Tathagatha the same?

Post by daverupa »

...

Thus-resultant-one?

:spy:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
SarathW
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Re: Is Nibbana and Tathagatha the same?

Post by SarathW »

Can we call an Arhanat a Tathagatha?
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: Is Nibbana and Tathagatha the same?

Post by SarathW »

Joseph Goldstein replace the word Tathagatha with the self!!!!
Am I misunderstanding some thing here.
:thinking:

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/talk/302/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Bakmoon
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Re: Is Nibbana and Tathagatha the same?

Post by Bakmoon »

SarathW wrote:Can we call an Arhanat a Tathagatha?
:thinking:
Although I don't have the references in front of me right now, I know there are Suttas in which the tern Tathagatha is used to refer to Arahants, not just the Buddha.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
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Re: Is Nibbana and Tathagatha the same?

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote:Joseph Goldstein replace the word Tathagatha with the self!!!!
Am I misunderstanding some thing here.
I haven't time to listen to the talk, but if you mean that Goldstein replaces 'tathāgata' with 'self' in the context of the four questions, this would be in accordance with the commentarial treatment of the passage, wherein 'tathāgata' here is not treated as being limited to Buddhas, but rather is taken to be a conventional term for living beings of any sort. And so to ask if a tathāgata or a person (puggala) or a being (bhūta) or a creature (satta) or a self (attā) or a soul (jīva) exist after death is one and the same question.
Svākkhātaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, sandiṭṭhikam’akālikaṃ,
Yattha amoghā pabbajjā, appamattassa sikkhato.


“The holy life is well proclaimed,
directly visible, immediate,
Where not in vain is the going forth
of one who trains heedfully.”
— Sela Sutta
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