Feeling -> craving

[Alex123]

Hello,

Why is in Dependent Origination, craving follows feeling (where are other factors that can be base for craving)?
Can't one crave based on akusala misperceptions (ex: subhasaññā)?

Thanks,

Alex

[SarathW]

Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them""


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[daverupa]

...and so the point is to indicate the nidana from that nexus w/feeling to craving; I take the 12-step list as more of a mnemonic device for a package of Buddhism a century or two along, more than anything else.

Each nidana receives a lot of detailed discussion in the Suttas, and there's a lot more interplay & overlap than the linear 12-step list reflects, in my opinion. There are shorter lists, and deeper discussions, and I've come to prefer those to later attempts which take on the whole thing at once.

[Reductor]

Connected with the other poster's comments, consider SN 45.11.

"There is feeling with desire as condition, also feeling with thought as condition, also feeling with perception as condition."

It is a bit of a perplexing sutta, to my mind at least.

[SarathW]

In DO you can start anywhere and end anywhere as you wish.
You can go forward, back word, jump from on limb to another with ease.
See the following video, Ven. Bodhi start his discussion with clinging and craving and jump to ignorance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfsStm5zkQ0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Alex123]

...and so the point is to indicate the nidana from that nexus w/feeling to craving; I take the 12-step list as more of a mnemonic device for a package of Buddhism a century or two along, more than anything else.

Each nidana receives a lot of detailed discussion in the Suttas, and there's a lot more interplay & overlap than the linear 12-step list reflects, in my opinion. There are shorter lists, and deeper discussions, and I've come to prefer those to later attempts which take on the whole thing at once.

And what I've notice is that unfortunately there are different dependent origination lists.

For example:
In SN22.81 there is this:
contact+ignorance -> feeling -> craving -> fabrication

In MN28 it is not just salayatana that is responsible for consciousness, (not just for vedana) but salayatana + corresponding engagement . Some suttas omit "corresponding engagement".

In DN15, first 2 factors are omitted and nāmarūpa is also a cause for consciousness.
Some other suttas start with sense organs -> craving -> etc


I like this formulation of D.O.

Any desire, embracing, grasping, & holding-on to these five clinging-aggregates is the origination of stress.

Any subduing of desire & passion, any abandoning of desire & passion for these five clinging-aggregates is the cessation of stress.' MN28