Katha Kv 17.11 : What is sanctification of the Gift?

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SarathW
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Katha Kv 17.11 : What is sanctification of the Gift?

Post by SarathW »

What is Sanctification of the Gift?
Are there any Sutta reference?
How do monks do this and what is the purpose?

https://suttacentral.net/en/kv17.11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Nicolas
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Re: Katha Kv 17.11 : What is sanctification of the Gift?

Post by Nicolas »

Dakkhiṇā­vibhaṅga Sutta (MN 142) wrote: There are, Ānanda, these four purifications of offerings. Which four?

There is an offering that is purified by the giver, not by the receiver, there is an offering that is purified by the receiver, not by the giver, there is an offering that is neither purified by the giver nor by the receiver, there is an offering that is purified by the giver and by the receiver.

What, Ānanda, is an offering that is purified by the giver not by the receiver? Here, Ānanda, the giver is virtuous and good-natured, and the receivers are unvirtuous and bad-natured, in this way, Ānanda, the offering is purified by the giver not by the receiver.

What, Ānanda, is an offering that is purified by the receiver not by the giver? Here, Ānanda, the giver is unvirtuous and bad-natured, and the receivers are virtuous and good-natured, in this way, Ānanda, the offering is purified by the receiver not by the giver.

What, Ānanda, is an offering that is neither purified by the giver nor by the receiver? Here, Ānanda, the giver is unvirtuous and bad-natured, and the receivers are unvirtuous and bad-natured, in this way, Ānanda, the offering is purified neither by the giver nor by the receiver.

What, Ānanda, is an offering that is purified by the giver and by the receiver? Here, Ānanda, the giver is virtuous and good-natured, and the receivers are virtuous and good-natured, in this way, Ānanda, the offering is purified by the giver and by the receiver.

These, Ānanda, are these four purifications of offerings.
SarathW
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Re: Katha Kv 17.11 : What is sanctification of the Gift?

Post by SarathW »

Thank you Nicolas
What it means by purification?
Is it some thing to do with good kamma for the giver?
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Nicolas
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Re: Katha Kv 17.11 : What is sanctification of the Gift?

Post by Nicolas »

When one gives to one who is not greedy, then that gift is free from unwholesomeness, that gift will be used for a non-greedy end, and will not be used to fuel the greed of the receiver: that is one sense in which a gift is purified.

(PS: I'm looking for some more quotes.)
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Nicolas
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Re: Katha Kv 17.11 : What is sanctification of the Gift?

Post by Nicolas »

Related:
Dhammapada, Taṇhā Vagga wrote: 355. Riches ruin only the foolish, not those in quest of the Beyond. By craving for riches the witless man ruins himself as well as others.

356. Weeds are the bane of fields, lust is the bane of mankind. Therefore, what is offered to those free of lust yields abundant fruit.

357. Weeds are the bane of fields, hatred is the bane of mankind. Therefore, what is offered to those free of hatred yields abundant fruit.

358. Weeds are the bane of fields, delusion is the bane of mankind. Therefore, what is offered to those free of delusion yields abundant fruit.

359. Weeds are the bane of fields, desire is the bane of mankind. Therefore, what is offered to those free of desire yields abundant fruit.
SarathW
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Re: Katha Kv 17.11 : What is sanctification of the Gift?

Post by SarathW »

Thanks
Can you explain how gift is purified by the giver (first one).

"the giver is virtuous and good-natured, and the receivers are unvirtuous and bad-natured"

Say I am a virtuous person and give some money to a murderer.
Murderer use that money to buy a weapon to kill someone.
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santa100
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Re: Katha Kv 17.11 : What is sanctification of the Gift?

Post by santa100 »

SarathW wrote:Can you explain how gift is purified by the giver (first one).
Ven. Bodhi's comment citing Comy.'s definition:
MA: here the word "purified" has the meaning "made fruitful"
So bascically it means the meritorious potential of the offering. If using the example of the virtuous person giving gift to a murderer, it'd mean that due to the virtues of the giver, his act of giving still has a higher potential of generating merit as compared to the case of a run-of-the-mill or an evil giver giving the same gift to a murderer. Similar reasoning can be applied to the other remaining 3 cases.
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Re: Katha Kv 17.11 : What is sanctification of the Gift?

Post by SarathW »

How do I know whether I am a virtuous or a run off the mill person?
Does it depend on the mental state of the giver at the time of giving?
Something very interesting to read:
=========

This helps to explain why gangsters, crooked businessmen and corrupt politicians in Theravadin lands are amongst the more generous and visible supporters of the Sangha. It is assumed that generosity to the Sangha is sufficient to qualify being a good lay Buddhist just as it is assumed that any evil one might commit can be easily cancelled out by doing the greatest good - giving to the Sangha. Such types can also be quite confident that their donations will be graciously accepted and that the sermons they hear afterwards will make reference to moral behavior only in the most abstract terms.

http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-b ... dhanew.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Nicolas
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Re: Katha Kv 17.11 : What is sanctification of the Gift?

Post by Nicolas »

Chaḷaṅgadāna Sutta (AN 6.37) wrote: And which are the three factors of the donor? There is the case where the donor, before giving, is glad; while giving, his/her mind is bright & clear; and after giving is gratified. These are the three factors of the donor.

And which are the three factors of the recipients? There is the case where the recipients are free of passion or are practicing for the subduing of passion; free of aversion or practicing for the subduing of aversion; and free of delusion or practicing for the subduing of delusion. These are the three factors of the recipients.

Such are the three factors of the donor, the three factors of the recipients. And this is how a donation is endowed with six factors.

And it is not easy to take the measure of the merit of a donation thus endowed with six factors as ‘just this much a bonanza of merit, a bonanza of what is skillful—a nutriment of bliss, heavenly, resulting in bliss, leading to heaven—that leads to what is desirable, pleasing, charming, beneficial, pleasant.’ It is simply reckoned as a great mass of merit, incalculable, immeasurable.

Just as it is not easy to take the measure of the great ocean as ‘just this many buckets of water, just this many hundreds of buckets of water, just this many thousands of buckets of water, or just this many hundreds of thousands of buckets of water.’ It is simply reckoned as a great mass of water, incalculable, immeasurable. In the same way, it is not easy to take the measure of the merit of a donation thus endowed with six factors as ‘just this much a bonanza of merit, a bonanza of what is skillful—a nutriment of bliss, heavenly, resulting in bliss, leading to heaven—that leads to what is desirable, pleasing, charming, beneficial, pleasant.’ It is simply reckoned as a great mass of merit, incalculable, immeasurable.

Before giving, glad;
while giving, the mind is bright & clear;
having given, one is gratified:
This is the consummation of the sacrifice.
Free of passion, free of aversion,
free of delusion, without fermentation:
the consummation of the field of the sacrifice,
one restrained, leading the holy life.
Having rinsed oneself,
having given with one’s own hands,
then—because of oneself,
because of the other—
that is a sacrifice yielding great fruit.
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Re: Katha Kv 17.11 : What is sanctification of the Gift?

Post by SarathW »

Related topic:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=26150" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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SarathW
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Re: Katha Kv 17.11 : What is sanctification of the Gift?

Post by SarathW »

The Sutta reference.

MN142
https://suttacentral.net/mn142/en/sujato
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sentinel
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Re: Katha Kv 17.11 : What is sanctification of the Gift?

Post by sentinel »

Give to a Buddha first , then arhat , anagamin , sakadagamin , sotapanna , monks , eight preceptor , five preceptor , attainer of jhana and virtuous people of other sects ascetics , parents , needy childrens and oldfolks and sicks and good commoner . Don't give to criminals . By that your gift purified both side to the maximum .
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Re: Katha Kv 17.11 : What is sanctification of the Gift?

Post by chownah »

These two suttas give two diffrent takes on what accrues to the giver and so they are pertinent to this topic if "purification" has to do with the merit of varoius gifting situations :
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: Katha Kv 17.11 : What is sanctification of the Gift?

Post by DooDoot »

santa100 wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:40 am So bascically it means the meritorious potential of the offering. If using the example of the virtuous person giving gift to a murderer, it'd mean that due to the virtues of the giver, his act of giving still has a higher potential of generating merit as compared to the case of a run-of-the-mill or an evil giver giving the same gift to a murderer. Similar reasoning can be applied to the other remaining 3 cases.
Obviously a rare virtuous person, such as a Noble One, already has sufficient merit. Why would they need more? The rude person trolling for gifts should learn to show gratitude (such as bowing & kissing feet) otherwise the virtuous person will no longer give to them and regard them as the truly are, namely, a troll. :shock: The Buddha taught to show gratitude for the smallest gift. :smile:
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santa100
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Re: Katha Kv 17.11 : What is sanctification of the Gift?

Post by santa100 »

DooDoot wrote:Obviously a rare virtuous person, such as a Noble One, already has sufficient merit. Why would they need more?
Asking such question is like asking why would a martial art master continues to carry out all his drills day in, day out; or a musical maestro continues to play his instruments! They do it not because they need anythinig more, they're already at the top of their games. So they do it because it's become second nature, it's in their blood, and it's become their way of life. By the way, if a "virtuous person" is still looking for gratitude such as "bowing & kissing feet" from others, then he might want to take a good close look at his "virtues" again!
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