Consciousness and eternal consciousness

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Tom
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Consciousness and eternal consciousness

Post by Tom »

Does Theravada Buddhism say consciousness is not eternal? I am curious because according to Theravada Buddhism doesn't consciousness continue to appear endlessly until final liberation? And isn't nibbana itself a kind of consciousness? If it is, doesn't this mean consciousness will never permanently end?
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katavedi
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Re: Consciousness and eternal consciousness

Post by katavedi »

Hello Tom,
Tom wrote:Does Theravada Buddhism say consciousness is not eternal?
Yes. See MN 38:
The Blessed One then asked him: “Sāti, is it true that the following pernicious view has arisen in you: ‘As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is this same consciousness that runs and wanders through the round of rebirths, not another’?”

“Exactly so, venerable sir. As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is this same consciousness that runs and wanders through the round of rebirths, not another.”

“What is that consciousness, Sāti?”

“Venerable sir, it is that which speaks and feels and experiences here and there the result of good and bad actions.”

“Misguided man, to whom have you ever known me to teach the Dhamma in that way? Misguided man, have I not stated in many ways consciousness to be dependently arisen, since without a condition there is no origination of consciousness? But you, misguided man, have misrepresented us by your wrong grasp and injured yourself and stored up much demerit; for this will lead to your harm and suffering for a long time.”

Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus thus: “Bhikkhus, what do you think? Has this bhikkhu Sāti, son of a fisherman, kindled even a spark of wisdom in this Dhamma and Discipline?”

“How could he, venerable sir? No, venerable sir.”

When this was said, the bhikkhu Sāti, son of a fisherman, sat silent, dismayed, with shoulders drooping and head down, glum, and without response. Then, knowing this, the Blessed One told him: “Misguided man, you will be recognised by your own pernicious view. I shall question the bhikkhus on this matter.”

Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus thus: “Bhikkhus, do you understand the Dhamma taught by me as this bhikkhu Sāti,
son of a fisherman, does when he misrepresents us by his wrong grasp and injures himself and stores up much demerit?”

“No, venerable sir. For in many discourses the Blessed One has stated consciousness to be dependently arisen, since without a condition there is no origination of consciousness.”
Tom wrote:I am curious because according to Theravada Buddhism doesn't consciousness continue to appear endlessly until final liberation?
There may be Theravada Buddhists who have fallen into that mistaken view, but it's clearly not what the Buddha taught. For one who doesn't understand dependent arising, things may appear the way you describe, but that is a view based on ignorance.
Tom wrote:And isn't nibbana itself a kind of consciousness?
Nibbana is not a kind of consciousness. It is the cessation of the ordinary consciousness that creates illusions. This will be hard to understand as long as you are stuck in the mode of seeing consciousness as a "thing" that exists on its own. It's difficult to see when your only two choices are "exists" or "not exists". That's why the Buddha kept pointing people back to dependent arising when these kind of questions arose. See SN 12.15.
Tom wrote:If it is, doesn't this mean consciousness will never permanently end?
It ends when you see that it never really "existed" to begin with.

Kind wishes,
katavedi
“But, Gotamī, when you know of certain things: ‘These things lead to dispassion, not to passion; to detachment, not to attachment; to diminution, not to accumulation; to having few wishes, not to having many wishes; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to socializing; to the arousing of energy, not to indolence; to simple living, not to luxurious living’ – of such things you can be certain: ‘This is the Dhamma; this is the Discipline; this is the Master’s Teaching.’”
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samseva
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Re: Consciousness and eternal consciousness

Post by samseva »

katavedi wrote:
Tom wrote:And isn't nibbana itself a kind of consciousness?
Nibbana is not a kind of consciousness. It is the cessation of the ordinary consciousness that creates illusions. This will be hard to understand as long as you are stuck in the mode of seeing consciousness as a "thing" that exists on its own. It's difficult to see when your only two choices are "exists" or "not exists". That's why the Buddha kept pointing people back to dependent arising when these kind of questions arose. See SN 12.15.
To add a bit more, one who has attained Nibbāna still has a consciousness. What is different is that it is 'kammically inoperative' or simply 'functional consciousness' (called kiriya-citta in Pāli).
katavedi wrote:
Tom wrote:If it is, doesn't this mean consciousness will never permanently end?
It ends when you see that it never really "existed" to begin with.
Consciousness does (and did) exist in a being who is alive and hasn't put an end to the round of rebirths, as well as an Arahant who is still alive.
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samseva
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Re: Consciousness and eternal consciousness

Post by samseva »

Tom wrote:Does Theravada Buddhism say consciousness is not eternal? I am curious because according to Theravada Buddhism doesn't consciousness continue to appear endlessly until final liberation? And isn't nibbana itself a kind of consciousness? If it is, doesn't this mean consciousness will never permanently end?
Like katavedi mentioned, Nibbāna is not a thing in and of itself. You could say it is an alteration of consciousness. However, like all the other aggregates (corporeality, feeling, perception, mental-formations), consciousness is conditioned and all things conditioned are impermanent. Therefore, consciousness does break down eventually (at the break up of of the body once having reached Arahantship) and is impermanent.
dhammarelax
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Re: Consciousness and eternal consciousness

Post by dhammarelax »

Tom wrote:Does Theravada Buddhism say consciousness is not eternal? I am curious because according to Theravada Buddhism doesn't consciousness continue to appear endlessly until final liberation? And isn't nibbana itself a kind of consciousness? If it is, doesn't this mean consciousness will never permanently end?
The same consciousness is not eternal no.

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dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5
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dhammacoustic
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Re: Consciousness and eternal consciousness

Post by dhammacoustic »

Tom wrote:Does Theravada Buddhism say consciousness is not eternal?
The Buddha said it.
doesn't consciousness continue to appear endlessly until final liberation?
Not necessarily.
And isn't nibbana itself a kind of consciousness?
No.
If it is, doesn't this mean consciousness will never permanently end?
"Sabbe sankhara anicca"; all forms are impermanent.

There is no-thing that is permament.
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The Thinker
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Re: Consciousness and eternal consciousness

Post by The Thinker »

Not much point in searching for consciousness after death , not even the buddha could know, he was human, the dhamma teaches a way of easing suffering in this life, that is the beauty of it.

People search for meaning or should I say hope for some sort of existence after death, it will remain the great unknown, I believe the buddha understood this.
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth
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cappuccino
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Re: Consciousness and eternal consciousness

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"There isn't even this much consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."
Nakhasikha Sutta
Ontheway
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Re: Consciousness and eternal consciousness

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Bhante Sujato commented on this so-called eternal consciousness or original mind.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Consciousness and eternal consciousness

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Tom wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:16 pm Does Theravada Buddhism say consciousness is not eternal?
Sensory consciousness or cognizance, associated with the six sense bases and name-rupa is impermanant.

Tom wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:16 pmAnd isn't nibbana itself a kind of consciousness?
Yes, Nibbana is a type of transformed and liberated consciousness. There are several sutta passages in the Canon that say this. It is awareness aware of itself and freed from involvement with the five aggregates. However it is not to be mistaken for a self, or some kind of entity. It is without any limits wherebye one could classify it or identify with it.

These two study guides discuss how this is understood if you are interested in academic discussion of this

https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Wri ... 181215.pdf

http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... -2004r.pdf



"Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?"

"On the western wall, lord."

"And if there is no western wall, where does it land?"

"On the ground, lord."

"And if there is no ground, where does it land?"

"On the water, lord."

"And if there is no water, where does it land?"

"It does not land, lord."

"In the same way, where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food ... contact ... intellectual intention ... consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or grow. Where consciousness does not land or grow, name-&-form does not alight. Where name-&-form does not alight, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair."



https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn ... .than.html

"Freed, dissociated, & released from consciousness, the Tathagata dwells with limitless awareness... Freed, dissociated, & released from death, the Tathagata dwells with limitless awareness."
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html

"Any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him...Any feeling... Any perception... Any volitional formations...

"Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Liberated from reckoning in terms of consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, immeasurable, hard to fathom like the ocean. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply."




https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn ... .than.html

"'Consciousness without surface,
endless, radiant all around,
has not been experienced through the earthness of earth ... the liquidity of liquid ... the fieriness of fire ... the windiness of wind ... the allness of the all.'"
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn ... .than.html
Last edited by Cause_and_Effect on Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
DiamondNgXZ
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Re: Consciousness and eternal consciousness

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

The Thinker wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:37 am Not much point in searching for consciousness after death , not even the buddha could know, he was human, the dhamma teaches a way of easing suffering in this life, that is the beauty of it.

People search for meaning or should I say hope for some sort of existence after death, it will remain the great unknown, I believe the buddha understood this.
https://suttacentral.net/mn68/en/sujato ... ript=latin

Buddha declared the attainments of various disciples after they passed away.

https://suttacentral.net/mn41/en/sujato ... ript=latin

He declared the way leading to various realms of rebirth.

https://suttacentral.net/an6.2/en/sujat ... ript=latin

The divine eye is the power which can be used to see the destination of beings after they passed away.
Ontheway
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Re: Consciousness and eternal consciousness

Post by Ontheway »

Advaita Vedanta also talked about eternal consciousness and how Buddha got it mistakenly :?

Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
pegembara
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Re: Consciousness and eternal consciousness

Post by pegembara »

Anything that is made into an object -consciousness, eternal consciousness, God, Brahman- cannot be the "subject".
"You" are not that. No subject without the object - that's dependent co-arising.
Just this.
So what is this awareness that we have? What is that which is aware?

If we ask others, to help us find our awareness – they can point physically here and there and everywhere in the world – but it wouldn’t be our awareness. It would just be an “object of” awareness – something upon which the awareness lands upon – much like how light lands upon a surface and gets reflected to our eyes. Our awareness is like that light.

https://essenceofbuddhism.wordpress.com ... jahn-chah/
When we use such terms as “the one who knows,” it is important to understand that this is a colloquial usage. In no way is some kind of true self or super-entity implied—it’s merely a convenient figure of speech. If we start looking for “who” it is that is aware we rapidly end up in a tangle of self-view.

The heart can be aware, but trying to make awareness an object, in the same way that we would a tree or a thought, is a frustrating process.

https://www.lionsroar.com/like-oil-and-water/
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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