"Arising" and "ceasing" - What does it actually refer to?

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"Arising" and "ceasing" - What does it actually refer to?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I'm interested to know what different people conceive "arising" (samudaya) and "ceasing" (nirodha) to be referring to.

I believe "arising" relates to the direct (anuloma) or forward mode of paticcasamuppada, whereas "ceasing" relates to the indirect (paṭiloma) or reverse mode of paticcasamuppada.

When it is said that a stream-winner (sotāpanna) has clearly seen the cause as well as things arisen from the cause (‘hetu ca sudiṭṭho hoti hetu samuppanne ca dhamme’), this is what is being referred to.

I do know however that people see matters differently, so I would like to know how you understand these terms in the context of the Dhamma.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: "Arising" and "ceasing" - What does it actually refer to?

Post by cappuccino »

Monks, the eye is inconstant, changeable, alterable. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The mind is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

Forms... Sounds... Aromas... Flavors... Tactile sensations... Ideas are inconstant, changeable, alterable.

Form... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening.

SN 25.1-10
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Re: "Arising" and "ceasing" - What does it actually refer to?

Post by cappuccino »

All the above is arising and ceasing...
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Re: "Arising" and "ceasing" - What does it actually refer to?

Post by Mkoll »

cappuccino wrote:Monks, the eye is inconstant, changeable, alterable. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The mind is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

Forms... Sounds... Aromas... Flavors... Tactile sensations... Ideas are inconstant, changeable, alterable.

Form... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening.

SN 25.1-10
That's how I try to see it too.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Re: "Arising" and "ceasing" - What does it actually refer to?

Post by SarathW »

I think in regard to arising, that not only the inconstant, but we have to contemplate unsatisfactory and not-self in them as well.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: "Arising" and "ceasing" - What does it actually refer to?

Post by cappuccino »

Seeing impermanence reveals "not self"
& why it's unsatisfactory.
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Re: "Arising" and "ceasing" - What does it actually refer to?

Post by SarathW »

The way I understand:
Many people see impermanence but they don't see the unsatisfactory.
Many people see the impermanence and unsatisfactory but they do not se the not-self.
Not-self, you have to learn this from Buddha or his follower.
Last edited by SarathW on Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Arising" and "ceasing" - What does it actually refer to?

Post by _anicca_ »

SarathW wrote:The way I understand:
Many people see impermanence but they don't see the unsatisfactory.
Many people see the impermanence and unsatisfactory but they do not se the not-self.
Not-self you have to be learned from Buddha or his follower.
Anatta is what makes the Buddha's teaching different from the other Brahmans and holy men of his time. Even now, this is something that separates Buddhism from the rest.

Experienced practitioners of other religions are usually able to see the dukkha and anicca associated with all phenomena, but only in Buddhism can one learn of not-self.
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self."

:buddha1:

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Re: "Arising" and "ceasing" - What does it actually refer to?

Post by cappuccino »

Going forth is hard;
houses are hard places to live;
the Dhamma is deep;
wealth, hard to obtain;
it's hard to keep going
with whatever we get:
so it's right that we ponder
continually
continual
inconstancy.
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Arising" and "ceasing" - What does it actually refer to?

Post by Sujith Manoharan »

Paul Davy wrote: When it is said that a stream-winner (sotāpanna) has clearly seen the cause as well as things arisen from the cause (‘hetu ca sudiṭṭho hoti hetu samuppanne ca dhamme’), this is what is being referred to.
IMO, it is a clear experience of the nature of all phenomena which then gives one unshakeable confidence that the Path is the only way out, that is, relinquishing attachment to everything.

Ven. Nanananda dwells on this at length in his essays:
The insight into the basic principle of dependent arising, is in fact regarded as the arising of the 'eye of Dhamma'. About the stream-winner it is said that the dustless stainless eye of Dhamma has arisen in him. It seems then that what is called the 'Dhamma-eye', is the ability to see the Nibbānic solution in the very vortex of the samsāric problem.
It is the insight into this principle that basically distinguishes the noble disciple, who sums it up in the two words samudayo, arising, and nirodho, ceasing. The arising and ceasing of the world is for him a fact of experience, a knowledge. It is in this light that we have to understand the phrase aparappaccayā ñāṇam ev'assa ettha hoti, "herein he has a knowledge that is not dependent on another". In other words, he is not believing in it out of faith in someone, but has understood it experientially. The noble disciple sees the arising and the cessation of the world through his own six sense bases.
I think this can happen only when self-conceit and vanity eases for at least a few moments by the continuous observation of the principle of impermenance. When the notion 'I-am' vanishes, it implies that one's desire to exist has subsided. Ven. Nanananda observes that this can happen when the passing-away of phenomena is attended to repeatedly, in opposition to the worldling, who is obsessed with the arising of things.
The worldling who attends to the arising aspect and ignores the cessation aspect is carried away by the perception of the contact. But the mind, when steadied, is able to see the phenomenon of cessation: òhitaṃ cittaṃ vippamuttaṃ, vayañcassānupassati, "the mind steadied and released contemplates its own passing away".
Even a stream-winner's stance is somewhat inscrutable - the ability to discern and understand cessation as a principle. The relentless obsession with views and standpoints that indicate a desire to assert one's dominance in some way is the main fetter that needs to subside. The misery of this world can be thought about all day, but still, the desire to be, to exist, just doesn't loosen its hold on the mind.....my mind, at least :)
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Re: "Arising" and "ceasing" - What does it actually refer to?

Post by pegembara »

There is also the arising and ceasing of the world(loka). So it can also refer to all "things" or objects.
Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos."
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.
"I will teach you the origination of the world & the ending of the world. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."
Last edited by pegembara on Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Arising" and "ceasing" - What does it actually refer to?

Post by SarathW »

Here the world refer to five aggregates.
Basically it confirms what OP says.
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Re: "Arising" and "ceasing" - What does it actually refer to?

Post by Pinetree »

Arising and ceasing is just change.

I don't see the link to causality, in the sense that you can perfectly well observe and discuss arising and ceasing without discussing causality.

The way I'm seeing it is the links of dependent origination are 12 colors of beads. The concept of potential field of experience is like a big bowl with thousands of beads.

The actual experience is like scooping a handful of beads. Not always the same number of beads: one time there will be 7 beads, another time 30, etc. And yes, there is a relationship between the beads, but the relationship is always changing.

So you're not always scooping a perfect mandala of 12 beads, in the exact same order. Because paticcasamuppada itself is a didactic model, subject to impermanence itself.
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Re: "Arising" and "ceasing" - What does it actually refer to?

Post by cappuccino »

“There must be some way out of here,” said the joker to the thief
“There’s too much confusion, I can’t get no relief”
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Arising" and "ceasing" - What does it actually refer to?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Pinetree,
Pinetree wrote:Because paticcasamuppada itself is a didactic model, subject to impermanence itself.
As a "model" perhaps, but there remains specific conditionality (idappaccayatā)... model or no model, Buddha or no Buddha...
S. II 25 wrote:“Jātipaccayā bhikkhave jarāmaraṇaṁ. Uppādā vā tathāgatānaṁ anuppādā vā tathāgatānaṁ ṭhitā va sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā”.

“Dependent on birth is decay and death. Whether there be an arising of Tathāgatas or whether there be no arising of Tathāgatas, that elementary nature, that orderliness of the Dhamma, that norm of the Dhamma, the specific conditionality does stand as it is.”
Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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