What do the wider Theravadan world think about Goenka?

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Phenomniverse
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What do the wider Theravadan world think about Goenka?

Post by Phenomniverse »

I've just recently completed a 10-day Vipassana retreat in Goenka's tradition. It was my third, although it had been a number of years since I last did one of these. I quite like the technique and teachings Goenka offers, but he doesn't give much credit to the wider body of Buddhist thought and practice which makes me wonder what does other Buddhists think about Goenka's method/approach? Is he well respected, is his technique legitimate and complete, or is it a part of a larger picture that needs to be filled in? I'm interested in hearing pro's and con's from anyone who is sufficiently familiar with both Goenka's approach and the wider context of Theravada to have an informed opinion. Thanks.
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Ben
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Re: What do the wider Theravadan world think about Goenka?

Post by Ben »

I suggest you do some research on SN Goenka particularly, the esteem in which he held the Bhikkhu Sangha. Also, it might be worthwhile searching for, and reading, the obituaries to him. That should give you an indication of the respect he held for the tradition and the respect that the wider Theravada community held for SN Goenka.
kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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pilgrim
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Re: What do the wider Theravadan world think about Goenka?

Post by pilgrim »

Some Buddhists may feel resentful that Goenka does not identify himself as a Buddhist or state that he teaches Buddhism. But I think those who look beyond the superficialities understand that he is taking this position to reach an audience which shies away from Buddhism as an organised religion. Many of Goenka's students are sympathetic to Buddhism and many move on into "organised Buddhism".
dhammarelax
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Re: What do the wider Theravadan world think about Goenka?

Post by dhammarelax »

Phenomniverse wrote:I've just recently completed a 10-day Vipassana retreat in Goenka's tradition. It was my third, although it had been a number of years since I last did one of these. I quite like the technique and teachings Goenka offers, but he doesn't give much credit to the wider body of Buddhist thought and practice which makes me wonder what does other Buddhists think about Goenka's method/approach? Is he well respected, is his technique legitimate and complete, or is it a part of a larger picture that needs to be filled in? I'm interested in hearing pro's and con's from anyone who is sufficiently familiar with both Goenka's approach and the wider context of Theravada to have an informed opinion. Thanks.
In Buddhism Meditation is Jhana and Jhana is Meditation, there is no such a thing as liberated "only" through wisdom, moreover:

In AN 9. 44 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html) we read:

[Udayin:] "'Released through discernment, released through discernment,' it is said. To what extent is one described by the Blessed One as released through discernment?"


[Ananda:] "There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment, though with a sequel."

If a method does not include Jhana it might not be what the Buddha taught, both Bhante Vimalaramsi and Thanissaro B. have elaborated on this.

smile
dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5
chownah
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Re: What do the wider Theravadan world think about Goenka?

Post by chownah »

dhammarelax,
Being released through discernment is one way....isn't being released through faith another way? Do you know if there is a sutta similar to the one you brought which deals with being released through faith?
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pilgrim
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Re: What do the wider Theravadan world think about Goenka?

Post by pilgrim »

Sutta support for Goenka's method was discussed in this thread.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=7234
dhammarelax
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Re: What do the wider Theravadan world think about Goenka?

Post by dhammarelax »

chownah wrote:dhammarelax,
Being released through discernment is one way....isn't being released through faith another way? Do you know if there is a sutta similar to the one you brought which deals with being released through faith?
chownah
No I haven't found any Sutta suggesting this.
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5
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Ben
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Re: What do the wider Theravadan world think about Goenka?

Post by Ben »

dhammarelax wrote:
Phenomniverse wrote:I've just recently completed a 10-day Vipassana retreat in Goenka's tradition. It was my third, although it had been a number of years since I last did one of these. I quite like the technique and teachings Goenka offers, but he doesn't give much credit to the wider body of Buddhist thought and practice which makes me wonder what does other Buddhists think about Goenka's method/approach? Is he well respected, is his technique legitimate and complete, or is it a part of a larger picture that needs to be filled in? I'm interested in hearing pro's and con's from anyone who is sufficiently familiar with both Goenka's approach and the wider context of Theravada to have an informed opinion. Thanks.
In Buddhism Meditation is Jhana and Jhana is Meditation, there is no such a thing as liberated "only" through wisdom, moreover:
But there is. I suggest you continue to read and not just those interpretations that are appealing to you. A critical examination, particularly of those interpretations and teachings that appeal to your own biases and cherry picking is very beneficial.
And for what it's worth, the interpretation of the word jhana is highly dependent on context. It is sometimes used as a synonym for Bhavana in general and other times it is a synonym for samatha meditation and other times, the word jhana refers to the fruition states of when the hindrances are quiescent.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
Phenomniverse
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Re: What do the wider Theravadan world think about Goenka?

Post by Phenomniverse »

Thanks to everyone who posted replies to my post. Having looked into the matter further my impression is that Goenka and his method are generally respected. The few critical examinations that I found on the internet weren't especially compelling in the face of greater positive feedback and my own positive experiences of 10 day retreats. I'm satisfied that this is a good way of practising for me to continue to cultivate.
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akashdhamma
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Re: What do the wider Theravadan world think about Goenka?

Post by akashdhamma »

For those who doubt in his affiliation with the Buddhas way, here are some facts to consider:

He starts the course with taking refuge in the triple gem.

He often chants "Nathi me sharanam anbyam, dhammo me sharanam varam" (consequently for buddho and sangho) which explicitly translates to "I have no other refuge, the buddha dhamma and sangha are my highest refuge"...followed by," Itenna sacha vajenna ", (By the power of this truth), may... (obstacles cease to be) not 100%*sure about the last part.

He chants the dhamma vandana, some of which contradict Hindu beliefs.

Had he declared himself a Buddhist, much fewer non Buddhists would have attended his courses for fear of religious conversion.

In the longer courses he talks straight or so I've heard about developing faith, conviction and gratitude towards the triple gem as a means to progress.

He does not integrate any Hindu beliefs or systems into the courses and explicitly disallows people from doing such a thing as a rule.

I hope this post helps clarify your ideas, and may you remember these when coming across a similar discussion.
Tam Kho Panna Bhagavatam :
Evam Kalyanno,
Kitti Saado,
Abhu Gaato
chownah
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Re: What do the wider Theravadan world think about Goenka?

Post by chownah »

Don't be a buddhist; don't be anything at all.
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Re: What do the wider Theravadan world think about Goenka?

Post by SarathW »

don't be anything at all.
Like what?
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Digity
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Re: What do the wider Theravadan world think about Goenka?

Post by Digity »

I don't know much about Goenka, but I'm wonder if he deviates at all in any way from what the Buddha taught? Is there anything he teaches that isn't inline with the Dhamma? If not, then I don't see a problem.
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U Obhasa
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Re: What do the wider Theravadan world think about Goenka?

Post by U Obhasa »

On the one hand, he has likely done more than any other person or entity in modern times to make the practice of Vipassana available to so many people and places around the world. And the dana based system is highly respectable. The technique is well within the confines of the Satipatthana teaching. Meaning, the overall approach to Buddha's teaching comes across as neither too amorphous nor too prescriptive, neither too loose nor too tight. This allowed for some adaptability and ingenuity as far as application of the teaching within certain limits. So even though part by part examination of body sensayions is not specifically mentioned, it falls within those parameters.

Goenka is my Dhamma father. He wasn't my first Vipassana teacher but I grew up in Dhamma under his guidance and for a long time (15 years) I was in awe of him and his technique. But just like every child grows up to eventually see their parents as simply human and imperfect, I now see some very significant issues with my 'father'. They all seem to stem from one single thing, he's very attached to his own view that his technique is THE Buddha's teaching. It is the pure Dhamma. This view significantly narrows and limits the depth and especially the breadth of Buddha's teachings as well as creates an hierarchy where his technique is highest. There are many more issues that manifest from this base which I'd be happy to discuss but won't go into now unless there is some expressed interest.

In that tradition there are good Dhamma teachings and a good technique but mixed in with it are both subtle and strong views and manifestations which can be quite problematic. I think if one is somewhat new to Dhamma as many of his first time students are, it's hard to tell the difference between the Dhamma and the hype. My advice is go ahead and take courses if it appeals but keep a foot firmly rooted in the wider Dhamna world by reading and taking courses from other teachers.

U Obhasa
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perkele
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Re: What do the wider Theravadan world think about Goenka?

Post by perkele »

Thank you, Bhante, for sharing your perspective and experience.

My experience and contact with the Goenka "brand" (I think it is somehow appropriate in some way to call it that) of Dhamma has been quite short and superficial. So my vision on the wider surrounding will certainly be very limited in comparison to yours.
I have only attended one ten-day retreat at one of his centers in my life (here in Germany). About three or four years ago, I think, and have been deeply impressed with his efficient way of guidance into a very intensive meditation practice, his succinct and confidence arousing introductions into some basic principles without any elaborate sidetracks, but straight to the point of meditation practice, and with plenty of good encouragement.

I tend to agree with this sentence
U Obhasa wrote:I think if one is somewhat new to Dhamma as many of his first time students are, it's hard to tell the difference between the Dhamma and the hype.
, although I don't know that for sure, because I had deep interest in the Dhamma since quite a long time before. I guess mileage may vary there, and so I also fully concur with the next sentence:
U Obhasa wrote:My advice is go ahead and take courses if it appeals but keep a foot firmly rooted in the wider Dhamna world by reading and taking courses from other teachers.
I very much liked Goenka's chanting, with so much reverence and somberness, as the reward after staying through successfully a strenuous session of sitting practice, as well as his uplifting short explanations on Dhamma at the end of the day on videotape. Listening to this always/sometimes helps to bring me into a good mood, because it all carries such a sincere and genuine sense of reverence for the Buddha and his teachings that I also share.

I quite disliked some many of the ultra spiritual people there, especially that boy with the angelic face and dreadlocks, from Canada or wherever he was from (yes, always these stupid foreigners, why don't they just stay at home, tssst...), who, immersed in his romantic sentiments, disobeyed the rules of keeping STFU by starting to sing like a gandabbha in the small forest patch amidst all the beautiful scenery on the last or second last day.

I also quite disliked some many of the people who were questioning the rules of STFU etc. as they were being explained at the very beginning, and challenging the explaining voluntary "retreat manger" (or whatever to call him) who was having quite a tough time doing his job. I was reminded of this sutta.

I even very much more disliked the not so insignificant group of people who made a big ruckus, disrespecting everyone else's need for rest late at night, after the first couple of days, talking, laughing, partying, joking and ridiculing the whole spiritual outfit there, before leaving the next day because they were too wimpy to carry on. They reminded me very much of the group of six monks.

I very much liked my two roommates, especially the red-haired, shorter one (looking somewhat similar to JP Sears), who was always very humble and friendly, with respectful gestures, focussed on not disturbing anyone, and very inspiring and encouraging in his good manners and his humble dedication to the sitting practice during the "free time".
But also the other blonde, taller one, who one night started talking and moaning loudly in his sleep, and making kissing noises, apparently deeply immersed in some sort of erotic dreams about his boyfriend, whose name he repeated many times between moans and kisses. He was also very humble and respectful and a friendly roommate.

But I digressed somewhat. These are fond memories :) I should focus back on Goenka. I find it very remarkable, this kind of "movement" that Goenka created, putting to the best possible use his experience and ability as a business man and manager. I think he was a very good and truly inspiring person. So, again, I concur with
U Obhasa wrote:he has likely done more than any other person or entity in modern times to make the practice of Vipassana available to so many people and places around the world.
and all the rest of that paragraph.
I can understand somehow that one could come to say that:
But just like every child grows up to eventually see their parents as simply human and imperfect, I now see some very significant issues with my 'father'. They all seem to stem from one single thing, he's very attached to his own view that his technique is THE Buddha's teaching. It is the pure Dhamma.
But this did not actualy come off that strong to me. I never took it really as "my way (or my teacher's) way (of vipassana (TM) ) is the one and only way". (Here is maybe a tangent to that discussion.) But again, this quite likely has a lot to do with my being acquainted somewhat with the Buddha's teachings from other angles beforehand (much thanks to DhammaWheel, among others). It may sound to newcomers there during the course that "his" way and "technique" of vipassana (TM) is the only one and true way of practice leading to vipassana (insight) that was discovered by the Buddha, whereas in reality there are many possible variations of practice and it does not actually come down to one specific "technique" that is to be quite mechanically followed to reach Nibbana, but a much more nuanced whole all-round mental and moral self-education that can and should be applied and realized in all kinds of circumstance and life situations, and has many more guiding and guarding principles to keep one on track than the narrow "vipassana course brand" track of sitting ten-day, twenty-day, ... x-day courses, serving the community through voluntary service in this organization etc. etc.
I never really saw it that way, and never in any way felt pushed to see it that way in the retreat setting, taking it implicitly that Goenka surely also does not actually see it that way, and his "Dhamma salesmenship" is only there to get people really interested (and I think he was actually extremely good at that), and there is certainly no way to fit in "the whole picture" of the Buddha's Dhamma into this sort of "highest quality mass produce Dhamma" package. But I have witnessed, or at least gotten the strong impression here or there at the end of the retreat, that there are quite some starry-eyed people who may be subscribing to such a sort-of "cultish" perspective on the Goenka "vipassana technique (TM)" way to Nibbana. And they may be missing out of a lot of context (which they may, however, still freely pick up and fill in later). I even once heard one other monk (one who is very humble, an epitome of calmness and sincerity, and whom I very deeply respect) describe the Goenka outfit as somewhat "cultish", although his utterances along those lines were rather on the cautious side and not actually outright condemning, and he also backed off and toned it down somewhat when I uttered some disagreement or disbelief about this kind of judgement. (That was before I actually attended such a retreat myself.) I can somehow understand this perspective. But I think this is most of all a "starry eyed enthusiastic beginners" phenomenon (which may of course also last for years or a lifetime, and does not even actually have to be a bad thing on the whole, I guess). But it may be encouraged by the mentioned somehow hierarchical structure, and the requirements to get to the "higher levels". "You first have to attend at least y x-day courses and serve at z courses, while keeping a regular daily meditation practice for T years with only practicing this one and true technique before you can attend a special alpha-omega-day meditation or sutta study abc course" or things like that. Which may make some sense in their own way, and help the organization stay organized somehow and really focussed on actually seriously dedicated practicioners, who actually fulfill the requirements for staying through such a course, and not leaving with a ruckus like the Chabbagya monks. But it is certainly discouraging to "serious" people who also want to go around elsewhere to look for greener pastures to have a broader view.
For me at least, I just thought that I would never gather up the time and dedication or ambition to follow through any further in the Goenka "career". But that the beginner's course was already good enough for me anyway, and an overall inspiring and beneficial experience that I am very grateful for. I think it is also very good for many tangentially interested people with some sort of a "spiritual" bend, who will keep carrying the good aftereffects and impetus to explore further from such an intensive exercise in self-examination through their lives. Like, for example, my former roommate, who told me that she had also recently visited such a course when I went there. She did not plan to (but also did not exclude the possibility of) going to any follow-up course and also was (and probably is) not a "Buddhist" in the fullest sense of faith and conviction, but she said it had been a very challenging, intense but most of all very beneficial and rewarding experience for her, and maybe she would try and keep the habit (of mediation - with which, I think, she has had much more success with than me). So in this way, I think the "Goenka cult" is actually a very open, very inviting and encouraging "gateway drug" to "spiritual seeking" of the more self-reliant kind for many people.

Perhaps it is also because I have not bothered trying to get up any higher in the "career", following more ten-day, then twenty-day etc. courses, to receive the follow-up teachings, that I have never gotten such a serious impression of "strong attachment to his own view that his technique is THE Buddha's teaching" on Goenka's side, but took his "advertisement slogans" along those lines rather lightly.

But I think the Goenka brand is also a possible gathering place for a host of starry-eyed, potentially "cultish" sort of "ultra-spiritual" people. And I guess only relatively very few who actually carry the backbone of the organization, dedicating their time with seriousness and reliability, dealing with all kinds of ho-bos and trying to accomodate all their needs, like the retreat manager I described above, who had to put up with quite some trouble due to his service, and probably also our former Admin here, Ben, who might have similar experiences.

So I think the main problem with the Goenka organisation is that it is just too big and ambitious, and perhaps too much ordered and rule-based, and maybe in the long run lacking enough healthy and organic outgrowth to keep the spirit alive in a healthy way, years after the "father" has moved on. But I have no idea really. I am just talking from my armchair.

I'm sorry if I digressed too much in this or that direction. I'm somewhat confused after having lots of troubles from which I am gratefully distracting myself now by writing longwinded stuff about something which I have an opinion about that has not much to do with my life at this point.

I'm also sorry if I possibly misrepresented something here. Especially about the rules on this and that, of which my memory is very hazy, because I was never very much interested in them.

(Also, I was speaking a bit in jest here or there. I hope this will be recognized. :!: :idea: )

However,
U Obhasa wrote:There are many more issues that manifest from this base which I'd be happy to discuss but won't go into now unless there is some expressed interest.
may you take this as my expression of interest, if you still feel so inclined to elaborate in any direction.

:anjali:
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