Unconditioned

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by tiltbillings »

cappuccino wrote:It is the Everlasting
the Refuge, the Beyond.
~ S 43.1-44
Interesting. That the Buddha said about himself:

    • Since a tathagata, even when actually present, is incomprehensible, it is inept to say of him – of the Uttermost Person, the Supernal Person, the Attainer of the Supernal – that after death the tathagata is, or is not, or both is and is not, or neither is nor is not SN III 118-9
Looks like you are stating that the Buddha somehow or other is, but he says that is inappropriate. Also, this goes directly to davidbrainerd's "true self" idea.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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cappuccino
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by cappuccino »

I didn't say he is. Are you saying he isn't?
Last edited by cappuccino on Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Thinker
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by The Thinker »

This is my own view: Whatever Nibbana is, it was poorly explained. If one see life as suffering (a little too strong a word perhaps or not?), which is the conclusion is it not? then any state that stops, ceases those emotions etc can be classified as Nibbana, I like to think(but obviously my vanity))Nibbana as the moment when we have watched our painful thoughts and they have evaporated ,they are let go of, I like to look at death in the same way but I do not yearn for it, I am unsure or I do not know, but I can reflect that death could possibly be just that = nothing = what I remember before birth? this may not be a truth? but this is what the buddha points towards ,the ceasing etc(or maybe not?)


The path is what the Buddha expressed most interest in(this here and now), the four truths the way to peace and easing of mental strife.

I may seem nihilistic but there is, purpose in this life, the purpose is to realise there is no purpose, but to give it purpose, and bring peace to all while we manage to exist. :namaste:
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth
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tiltbillings
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by tiltbillings »

cappuccino wrote:I didn't say he is. Are you saying he isn't?
You certainly seemed to imply that he "is," especially since you claimed he is not annihilated. As to what I am saying, it is what the text says. Also, keep in mind that SN 43.1-44 does not support your contention of nibbana being some sort place or existence, and if you want to argue that it does, you will need to offer more than just a couple of words.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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cappuccino
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by cappuccino »

The text doesn't say he isn't. And I didn't say he is.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by tiltbillings »

cappuccino wrote:The text doesn't say he isn't. And I didn't say he is.
The problem is that you seemed to be still stuck in an is/is not point view, which is singularly rejected by the Buddha.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by tiltbillings »

cappuccino wrote:The text doesn't say he isn't. And I didn't say he is.
But you also said: "I think we can conclude Nirvana is a state, an aferlife as well." What you write reads as if you are just writing words with no thought as to what they mean. Afterlife certainly implies someone living after they die, which is kind of the point of an afterlife. I am just wondering if you can actually make sense of this.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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cappuccino
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by cappuccino »

Well he is gone. Saying he is or isn't doesn't apply.
Last edited by cappuccino on Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by tiltbillings »

cappuccino wrote:Well he is gone. Saying he is or isn't doesn't apply. But that said, he carried on about his business.
Yes he did, which included not teaching that nibbana was an afterlife.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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cappuccino
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by cappuccino »

Parinibbana
"All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine." -Socrates
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tiltbillings
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by tiltbillings »

cappuccino wrote:Parinibbana
It is not an afterlife, and given that is not a place and no one lives there, since there is no there there, calling it an afterlife is meaningless.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Aloka
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Aloka »

Regarding Parinibbana, this is an excerpt from chapter 11 of "The Island - An anthology of the Buddha's teachings on Nibbana" by Ajahn Pasanno and Ajahn Amaro:
The Buddha was extraordinarily resolute in saying nothing about what happens after the death of the body of an enlightened one; therefore, one small point to clarify at the beginning is that when the noun Parinibbana is used to denote this, it does not mean ‘Nibbana after death.’ Even though such phrases as ‘gone to Parinibbana’ are in common usage, they lack technical accuracy for they can imply that Parinibbana is some kind of special place – a sort of super-heaven that is somehow
permanent and that one never dies in or falls away from. Instead the term means, rather, the event of passing away undergone by one who has attained Nibbana during their life.

http://cdn.amaravati.org/wp-content/upl ... e_2015.pdf
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davidbrainerd
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by davidbrainerd »

tiltbillings wrote:
cappuccino wrote:It is the Everlasting
the Refuge, the Beyond.
~ S 43.1-44
Interesting. That the Buddha said about himself:

    • Since a tathagata, even when actually present, is incomprehensible, it is inept to say of him – of the Uttermost Person, the Supernal Person, the Attainer of the Supernal – that after death the tathagata is, or is not, or both is and is not, or neither is nor is not SN III 118-9
Looks like you are stating that the Buddha somehow or other is, but he says that is inappropriate. Also, this goes directly to davidbrainerd's "true self" idea.
There's that "just shut up" sutta on parinirvana I mentioned way back. Thanks for finding the reference.

To me this sounds like the Nicene Creed. Just where Constantine invented a creed to unify the chuch onto 1 position where there were 3 before, because he needed a unified church to convince Greeks to convert, Asoka apparently favored the "you are not allowed to take any position" method for presenting a unified face of Buddhism to try and convert the Hindus in his empire. It makes sense that a king could add such an outrageous sutta after Buddhism was well established and the monks would passively put up with it and largely ignore it (how else did the position that Buddha was anihilated become so common when this sutta clearly disallows it?). But if Buddha actually taught this way then I can't imagine him ever gaining even 1 follower. "There's this Nirvana our whole religion is about going to, but if you try and say anything about it you're a retard." "Oh wow, isn't he the best teacher ever? I totally want to follow him." The "just shut up" suttas are like blasphemy against Buddha.
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cappuccino
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by cappuccino »

Aloka wrote:The Buddha was extraordinarily resolute in saying nothing about what happens after the death of the body of an enlightened one
It is the Unformed, the Unconditioned, the End,
the Truth, the Other Shore, the Subtle,
the Everlasting, the Invisible, the Undiversified,
Peace, the Deathless, the Blest, Safety,
the Wonderful, the Marvellous,
Nibbæna, Purity, Freedom,
the Island,
the Refuge, the Beyond.
~ S 43.1-44
"All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine." -Socrates
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cappuccino
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by cappuccino »

"This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise."
Ayacana Sutta
"All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine." -Socrates
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