Unconditioned

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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chownah
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by chownah »

In any case this meditation exercise is most appropriate only for the Noble Ones who have already realised nibbāna
For those who have realized nibbana what needs to be done has been done....they have laid down the burden.....they have sunk the raft and have no need to go carry the raft around with them. Why would they have need of meditation exercises?
chownah
JohnK
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by JohnK »

chownah wrote: For those who have realized nibbana what needs to be done has been done....they have laid down the burden.....they have sunk the raft and have no need to go carry the raft around with them. Why would they have need of meditation exercises?
chownah
Perhaps for the "day's abiding."
(Don't know what word was translated as "exercise," but it [exercise] may carry an unnecessary connotation.)
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
davidbrainerd
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by davidbrainerd »

Bakmoon wrote:He repeatedly enjoined that the aggregates and the sense bases are without any kind of self
Yep.
and also denied that there is anything beyond them as well.
Nope.

Also I think you misunderstand the concept of the self not being the aggregates nor "in" the aggregates. Basically he means the self remote controls the body rather than being in it, not that there is no self controling the controlable actions of the body. [Yes, spasms and things like that are not controlable; does not mean a thing.]
With the origination of name-and-form there is origination of mind [citta]. With the cessation of name-and-form there is passing away of mind.
An unfortunate case of Pali words having multiple meanings like dhamma does "teaching, phenomena, thing"...citta means both "mind" (an immaterial mind distinct from the nama) and "thought". Here he is talking about "thought" not "mind". Of course thoughts are impermanent, since they arise in the mind and pass.

In any case I have little will to keep debating a subject I think is completely settled by the question "Did Buddha teach suicide or the eight-fold noble path as the means to liberation?" which nobody here seems to want to tough because you know the implications: If the body is all there is then liberation comes merely from death and enlightenment is not necessary, everyone on their deathbed is liberated, arhat or not. You could not come up with a better way to undo the entire dhamma! A self beyond the body is required to make enlightenment/arhatship necessary for liberation. Therefore, its impossible that Buddha did not teach a self.


You also know that Buddha taught the 5 aggs are not the self and NEVER actually said that beyond them there is no self. That comes only from materialistic bias being put on the text.
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Nicolas
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Nicolas »

davidbrainerd wrote:[...]
There is a continuum, hence one can say "my" past life or "my" next life, but within this continuum there is no atta in the sense of an unchanging "self" free from dukkha. Upon arahantship (or other ariya attainment--I don't know), this continuum is seen for what it truly is. The suicide of a piece of the continuum does not end the continuum. The dukkha of the continuum (what you call "true self") is there because of identification with that continuum (or part of it), the craving for existence perpetuates the continuum. The continuum changes.
Yesterday's "Nicolas" and today's "Nicolas" are different, and yet I am deluded in thinking that they are the same. The sense of self or ownership within the continuum is a hindrance to realizing Nibbana.

One is free to identify with the continuum (which is what you seem to do or advocate), but that self-identification will not lead to Nibbana, but instead to perpetuation of existence.

You still did not answer my last message full of quotes from the suttas.
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Nicolas
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Nicolas »

What you call "true self" actually has no characteristics of a self, and so shouldn't be called "self" at all, and shouldn't be identified with.
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Nicolas
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Nicolas »

Avijjādipaccaya Sutta (SN 12.35) wrote:“What now is birth, and for whom is there this birth?”
“Not a valid question.”
davidbrainerd
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by davidbrainerd »

Nicolas wrote:
Avijjādipaccaya Sutta (SN 12.35) wrote:“What now is birth, and for whom is there this birth?”
“Not a valid question.”
If there is the view, ‘The soul and the body are the same,’ there is no living of the holy life; and if there is the view, ‘The soul is one thing, the body is another,’ there is no living of the holy life
So the only thing your position has in its favor is the "just shut up" suttas that represent Buddha as taking every possible option off the table so that absolutely nothing can be said on a topic. LOL. These suttas destroy the rest of the suttas if you buy them. They are completely nonsensical and clearly made-up to try and end disagreements after Buddha's death with the most absurd disagreement-ending tactic ever devised, i.e. "just shut up! You are not allowed to talk about that!" LOL. Oh wow.
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Nicolas
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Nicolas »

If you consider the Visudhimagga to be authoritative, there is this:
Visuddhimagga, chapter 19 (trans. Bhikkhu Ñāṇamoli) wrote:In all kinds of becoming, generation, destiny, station, and abode there appears only mentality-materiality, which occurs by means of linking of cause with fruit. He sees no doer over and above the doing, no experiencer of the result over and above the occurrence of the result. But he sees clearly with right understanding that the wise say “doer” when there is doing and “experiencer” when there is experiencing simply as a mode of common usage.

Hence the Ancients said:

There is no doer of a deed
Or one who reaps the deed’s result;
Phenomena alone flow on—
No other view than this is right.

And so, while kamma and result
Thus causally maintain their round,
As seed and tree succeed in turn,
No first beginning can be shown.

Nor in the future round of births
Can they be shown not to occur:
Sectarians, not knowing this,
Have failed to gain self-mastery.

They assume a being, see it as
Eternal or annihilated.
Adopt the sixty-two wrong views,
Each contradicting one another.

The stream of craving bears them on
Caught in the meshes of their views:
And as the stream thus bears them on
They are not freed from suffering.

A monk, disciple of the Buddha,
With direct knowledge of this fact
Can penetrate this deep
Void conditionality.

There is no kamma in result,
Nor does result exist in kamma;
Though they are void of one another,
There is no fruit without the kamma.

As fire does not exist inside
The sun, a gem, cow-dung, nor yet
Outside them, but is brought to be
By means of its component parts,

So neither can result be found
Within the kamma, nor without;
Nor does the kamma still persist
[In the result it has produced].

The kamma of its fruit is void;
No fruit exists yet in the kamma;
And still the fruit is born from it,
Wholly depending on the kamma.

For here there is no Brahmá God,
Creator of the round of births,
Phenomena alone flow on—
Cause and component their condition.
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Nicolas
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Nicolas »

davidbrainerd wrote:[...]
Your lack of understanding of and disagreement with these suttas in no way means that they are not authentic. Time to bow out (again). Good luck!
davidbrainerd
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by davidbrainerd »

Well Nicholas, its obvious to me that what you quoted above from Visuddhimagga, chapter 19, concerning there being no doer and everything is just a stream of phenomena just flowing on, that this is expressing the fatalistic view of the Ajivika which Buddha is clearly against in various suttas. So this discussion has certainly raised my awareness to the extent to which the determinist and nihilist sects Buddha was againt infiltrated the Theras.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by tiltbillings »

Well, David, do not forget to address this msg:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p386988
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mkoll
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Mkoll »

cjmacie wrote:Postby Mkoll » Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:59 am
" It seems to me that whatever view we form about Nibbana will miss the mark. That's not to say we shouldn't reflect on it—in fact, it is a meditation subject (AN 10.60 and others). Respectfully asking, reading, listening, sharing, and learning from each other about what we think of it can aid our reflection. Aiding our reflection is the purpose
of such things."


Excuse the intrusion here, as I've not read-through this whole thread; but this passage brought to mind a passage I just came across in Mahasi Sayadaw's talks expounding the Wheel-of-Dhamma Sutta (p.157 in ). I can't claim knowing the truth of this matter, e.g. perhaps subtle distinctions between "reflecting" and taking a meditation object, but was struck by Mahasi's treatment of this topic. (color emphasis added)

" “Meditation on the four truths was taught prefaced by the words ‘understanding of the four truths.’ Of these four truths, the first two, namely, the truth of suffering and the truth of the origin of suffering are concerned with the cycle of existence (vatta). The last two, namely, the truth of cessation of suffering, and the truth of the path leading to the cessation of suffering are concerned with escape from the cycle of existence (vivatta).
The meditator employs only the first two truths as objects of meditation and not the last two truths.

It means that the meditator contemplates the first two mundane truths, not the last two supramundane truths, which are unsuitable subjects for meditation.
Indeed it is impossible to meditate on them. Why so? The Subcommentary states that these supramundane truths are beyond the understanding of ordinary common worldlings.

Indeed it is true that ordinary common worldlings cannot take the path and fruition as their objects of meditation, nor is nibbāna within the scope of their knowledge before they attain the stage of maturity knowledge (gotrabhū-ñāna). Maturity knowledge consciousness arises only after knowledge of adaptation (anuloma-ñāna), when insight becomes fully developed. Immediately after maturity knowledge comes the realisation of the Path and its Fruition. Therefore, it is obvious that a common worldling is not in a position to take nibbāna or the path and its fruition as an object of meditation. Thus, it must be carefully noted that any instruction to begin with meditation on nibbāna is totally wrong.


The question might arise whether nibbāna may not be taken as an object for tranquility meditation. Contemplation on the qualities of nibbāna such as being devoid of lust (virāga), may be adopted as to gain concentration. However, this exercise is taken solely for the purpose of achieving one-pointedness of mind; it is not to immediately realise the Noble Path and Fruition. In any case this meditation exercise is most appropriate only for the Noble Ones who have already realised nibbāna, and not for the ordinary common worldling. Thus it is definitely a mistaken practice to try to achieve the path and fruition by dwelling on nibbāna from the very start."
Thank you for that. What the Venerable says makes sense.

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
chownah
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by chownah »

In any case this meditation exercise is most appropriate only for the Noble Ones who have already realised nibbāna
chownah wrote: For those who have realized nibbana what needs to be done has been done....they have laid down the burden.....they have sunk the raft and have no need to go carry the raft around with them. Why would they have need of meditation exercises?
chownah
JohnK wrote: Perhaps for the "day's abiding."
(Don't know what word was translated as "exercise," but it [exercise] may carry an unnecessary connotation.)
"Exercise" is not a translation....this is cjmacie's statement...I should have attributed that, sorry. I think the entire idea that arahants would sit around contemplating nibbana to be sort of comical...I can almost imagine a monty python skit about this.....but perhaps I am completely wrong about this.
chownah
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cjmacie
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by cjmacie »

by chownah » Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:51 pm

"Exercise" is not a translation....this is cjmacie's statement...I should have attributed that, sorry."

You actually should have read the post more carefully -- it was a direct quotation from Mahasi Sayadaw.

btw, the book referenced I forgot to cite, i.e. page 157 in:
http://www.saraniya.com/books/mahasi-sa ... dhamma.pdf

That book is a reworking of this original translation, which is, IMO, more readable (page 270-271 in this version):
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/damachak.pdf
chownah
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by chownah »

cjmacie wrote:by chownah » Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:51 pm

"Exercise" is not a translation....this is cjmacie's statement...I should have attributed that, sorry."

You actually should have read the post more carefully -- it was a direct quotation from Mahasi Sayadaw.

btw, the book referenced I forgot to cite, i.e. page 157 in:
http://www.saraniya.com/books/mahasi-sa ... dhamma.pdf

That book is a reworking of this original translation, which is, IMO, more readable (page 270-271 in this version):
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/damachak.pdf
Yes, I should have read the post more carefully and so in fact "exercise" is indeed a translation of something into english.....I still think that the entire idea that arahants would sit around contemplating nibbana to be sort of comical...I can almost imagine a monty python skit about this.....but perhaps I am completely wrong about this......AND......I still think that for those who have realized nibbana what needs to be done has been done....they have laid down the burden.....they have sunk the raft and have no need to go carry the raft around with them. Why would they have need of meditation exercises?
chownah
Last edited by chownah on Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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