cessation - seeing

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: cessation - seeing

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Lonely Upasaka,

Not a problem at all... in fact, on that point I agree wholeheartedly.

The suttas are cool.

8-)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Sylvester
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: cessation - seeing

Post by Sylvester »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Lonely upasaka wrote:
cessation of feeling & perception
is Nibbana.
And yet in the OP quote we have "He emerged mindfully from that attainment", suggesting that it is a meditative state preceding Nibbana, rather than Nibbana itself.
I've written previously on the "arising from" passages in MN 111, and I suspect that those 2 bits were introduced to distinguish Ven Sariputta from the Buddha. This probably stemmed from the Comy hagiography of the Buddha that some things were beyond the ken of even the leading disciples : http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... ic#p367203

Lonely upasaka's assertion is in fact supported by a series of suttas from AN 9.47 - 9.51. The jhanas and formless attainments are declared to be Nibbana in a metaphorical/provisional sense (pariyāyena) but the Cessation of Feeling and Perception is said to be categorically (nippariyāyena) Nibbana.
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10184
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: cessation - seeing

Post by Spiny Norman »

Sylvester wrote:The jhanas and formless attainments are declared to be Nibbana in a metaphorical/provisional sense (pariyāyena) but the Cessation of Feeling and Perception is said to be categorically (nippariyāyena) Nibbana.
But does this mean the functions of perception and feeling cease on the attainment of Nibbban? I don't see how that would be practical, particularly losing the faculty of perception, no longer being able to distinguish between colours and so on.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Sylvester
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: cessation - seeing

Post by Sylvester »

I'd say that they cease in the attainment, since they obviously re-arise when one leaves the attainment.

The real difficulty in the equation is the issue of the durability of Nibbana - if that attainment is Nibbana, does the ending of that attainment imply that Nibbana is not durable (dhuva)? For me, I think that series of suttas in AN 9 is focussed on the aspect of Nibbana as absolute absence of any form of suffering, while the dhuva ideas deal with Nibbana from the perspective of the total absence of the asavas.
2600htz
Posts: 825
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: cessation - seeing

Post by 2600htz »

Sylvester wrote:I'd say that they cease in the attainment, since they obviously re-arise when one leaves the attainment.

The real difficulty in the equation is the issue of the durability of Nibbana - if that attainment is Nibbana, does the ending of that attainment imply that Nibbana is not durable (dhuva)? For me, I think that series of suttas in AN 9 is focussed on the aspect of Nibbana as absolute absence of any form of suffering, while the dhuva ideas deal with Nibbana from the perspective of the total absence of the asavas.
Thanks!,

My question is: For the people who consider cessation of perception and feeling NIBBANA, where does insight,wisdom, understanding, knowledge of the destruction of the taints, etc comes to be?
davidbrainerd
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:12 am

Re: cessation - seeing

Post by davidbrainerd »

If you were Nibbana then perception and so on ceasing would be the dissociation of all extraneous mind-created dhammas from yourself leaving you in your pure self-ness. Otherwise, what the ceasation of perception and so on could be is unfathomable, especially with respect to attaining it temporarily in meditation if you're just the physical mind; would it then just be totally zoning out? If so, we all attained that in a boring lecture in middle school.
pegembara
Posts: 3466
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: cessation - seeing

Post by pegembara »

2600htz wrote:
Sylvester wrote:I'd say that they cease in the attainment, since they obviously re-arise when one leaves the attainment.

The real difficulty in the equation is the issue of the durability of Nibbana - if that attainment is Nibbana, does the ending of that attainment imply that Nibbana is not durable (dhuva)? For me, I think that series of suttas in AN 9 is focussed on the aspect of Nibbana as absolute absence of any form of suffering, while the dhuva ideas deal with Nibbana from the perspective of the total absence of the asavas.
Thanks!,

My question is: For the people who consider cessation of perception and feeling NIBBANA, where does insight,wisdom, understanding, knowledge of the destruction of the taints, etc comes to be?
Coming out of cessation of perception and feeling (ie. NIRODHA) allows one to see the "arising of the world". That is the process of dependent origination.
"But when a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Avijjaya tveva asesa viraga-
nirodha, sankhara-nirodho;
sankhara-nirodha vinnana-nirodho;
vinnana-nirodha nama-rupa-nirodho;
nama-rupa-nirodha salayatana-nirodho;
salayatana-nirodha phassa-nirodho;
phassa-nirodha vedana-nirodho;
vedana-nirodha tanha-nirodho;
tanha-nirodha upadana-nirodho;
upadana-nirodha bhava-nirodho;
bhava-nirodha jati-nirodho;
jati-nirodha jara-maranam
soka-parideva-dukkha-
domanassupayasa nirujjhanti;
evametassa kevalassa
dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hoti.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
2600htz
Posts: 825
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: cessation - seeing

Post by 2600htz »

pegembara wrote:
2600htz wrote:
Sylvester wrote:I'd say that they cease in the attainment, since they obviously re-arise when one leaves the attainment.

The real difficulty in the equation is the issue of the durability of Nibbana - if that attainment is Nibbana, does the ending of that attainment imply that Nibbana is not durable (dhuva)? For me, I think that series of suttas in AN 9 is focussed on the aspect of Nibbana as absolute absence of any form of suffering, while the dhuva ideas deal with Nibbana from the perspective of the total absence of the asavas.
Thanks!,

My question is: For the people who consider cessation of perception and feeling NIBBANA, where does insight,wisdom, understanding, knowledge of the destruction of the taints, etc comes to be?
Coming out of cessation of perception and feeling (ie. NIRODHA) allows one to see the "arising of the world". That is the process of dependent origination.
"But when a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Avijjaya tveva asesa viraga-
nirodha, sankhara-nirodho;
sankhara-nirodha vinnana-nirodho;
vinnana-nirodha nama-rupa-nirodho;
nama-rupa-nirodha salayatana-nirodho;
salayatana-nirodha phassa-nirodho;
phassa-nirodha vedana-nirodho;
vedana-nirodha tanha-nirodho;
tanha-nirodha upadana-nirodho;
upadana-nirodha bhava-nirodho;
bhava-nirodha jati-nirodho;
jati-nirodha jara-maranam
soka-parideva-dukkha-
domanassupayasa nirujjhanti;
evametassa kevalassa
dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hoti.

Thanks!.

I also maintain that view (that a person emerging from the cessation of perception and feeling can see dependent origination) , but my question is among the people who consider cessation of perception and feeling the actual experience of nibbana, whats their stand on the matter. Ex: They dont see anything, they see it while emerging but nibbana has already happen, they see it while in cessation, they see other characteristics (like the 3 marks)or share a different experience. Basically i dont know what other views are in theravada circles.
pegembara
Posts: 3466
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: cessation - seeing

Post by pegembara »

2600htz wrote:
I also maintain that view (that a person emerging from the cessation of perception and feeling can see dependent origination) , but my question is among the people who consider cessation of perception and feeling the actual experience of nibbana, whats their stand on the matter. Ex: They dont see anything, they see it while emerging but nibbana has already happen, they see it while in cessation, they see other characteristics (like the 3 marks)or share a different experience. Basically i dont know what other views are in theravada circles.
They don't see or feel anything in cessation - there is no discernment until after emerging from the last 2 attainments.
in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, enters & remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of nothingness, that is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how pleasant Unbinding is.

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant."

Nibbana Sutta
Regards
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Post Reply