Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

[SarathW]

by diverting the discussion toward Arahants.

Sorry but its not a diversion. The suttas say an Arahant is incapable of killing a living creature. It follows logically, non-Arahants must be capable.

It is a good point DD (but there is flaws in it), but where does it say that other Ariya is capable of killing a living creature?

[DooDoot]

It is a good point DD (but there is flaws in it), but where does it say that other Ariya is capable of killing a living creature?

There are no flaws in the above. What is flawed is your inability to present the alternative argument. If the suttas meant to say all Ariya cannot kill a living being, they would probably explicitly say it. So please post where the Buddha said it? Thanks

What are the consequences of making countless wrong posts denying & denouncing sotapanna? Please quote the suttas that explain what happens to those who revile Noble Ones? Thanks

[DooDoot]

A Sotapanna ... he's someone who has "fulfilled virtuous behaviors" to such a degree that is "unbroken, untorn, unblemished, unmottled, freeing, praised by the wise, ungrasped, leading to concentration." (AN 9.12 and SN 12.41 and more details

Yes... leading to concentration. Killing one mosquito will not stop the development of concentration.

SN 12.41 and more details

SN 12.41 says:

What are the five fearful animosities that have subsided? Householder, one who destroys life engenders, on account of such behaviour, fearful animosity pertaining to the present... and fearful animosity pertaining to the future... , and he experiences mental pain and displeasure. Thus for one who abstains from destroying life, this fearful animosity has subsided.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.41/en/bodhi

The above does not appear to apply to killing one mosquito; unless YOU YOURSELF believe it does. YOU YOURSELF create paranoia, fear, mental pain and displeasure from what naturally, according to the Law of Nature (Dhamma Niyama), is a trifling act.

[SarathW]

A Sotapanna ... he's someone who has "fulfilled virtuous behaviors" to such a degree that is "unbroken, untorn, unblemished, unmottled, freeing, praised by the wise, ungrasped, leading to concentration." (AN 9.12 and SN 12.41 and more details

Yes... leading to concentration. Killing one mosquito will not stop the development of concentration.

SN 12.41 and more details

SN 12.41 says:

What are the five fearful animosities that have subsided? Householder, one who destroys life engenders, on account of such behaviour, fearful animosity pertaining to the present life and fearful animosity pertaining to the future life, and he experiences mental pain and displeasure. Thus for one who abstains from destroying life, this fearful animosity has subsided.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.41/en/bodhi

What about trifle shop lifting, hanky panky with your neighbours wife , white lies and just a puff of grass?

[DooDoot]

What about trifle shop lifting, hanky panky with your neighbours wife , white lies and just a puff of grass?

The above is not trifling. SN 12.41 refers to the "animosity" generated from when the precepts are broken.

That you believe they are "trifling" demonstrates your personal views about sila.

[SteRo]

He is also fully freed from the four states of woe, and therefore, incapable of committing the six major wrongdoings.[7]

[7] Abhithanani; i. matricide, ii. patricide, iii. the murder of arahants (the Consummate Ones), iv. the shedding of the Buddha's blood, v. causing schism in the Sangha, and vi. pernicious false beliefs (niyata micca ditthi).

"Any evil action he may still do by deed, word or thought, he is incapable of concealing it; since it has been proclaimed that such concealing is impossible for one who has seen the Path (of Nibbana).[8]

[8] He is a sotapanna, stream-enterer, one who has attained the first stage of sanctity.

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn ... .piya.html

[SarathW]

A Sotapanna ... he's someone who has "fulfilled virtuous behaviors" to such a degree that is "unbroken, untorn, unblemished, unmottled, freeing, praised by the wise, ungrasped, leading to concentration." (AN 9.12 and SN 12.41 and more details

Yes... leading to concentration. Killing one mosquito will not stop the development of concentration.

SN 12.41 and more details

SN 12.41 says:

What are the five fearful animosities that have subsided? Householder, one who destroys life engenders, on account of such behaviour, fearful animosity pertaining to the present... and fearful animosity pertaining to the future... , and he experiences mental pain and displeasure. Thus for one who abstains from destroying life, this fearful animosity has subsided.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.41/en/bodhi

The above does not appear to apply to killing one mosquito; unless YOU YOURSELF believe it does. YOU YOURSELF create paranoia, fear, mental pain and displeasure from what naturally, according to the Law of Nature (Dhamma Niyama), is a trifling act.

This is how the executioners think I suppose.

[DooDoot]

This is how the executioners think I suppose.

You posted drugs, adultery, theft is "trifling". Best you work on that rather than post more nonsense. The Buddha often said executioners due their duty for the King.

[SarathW]

What about trifle shop lifting, hanky panky with your neighbours wife , white lies and just a puff of grass?

The above is not trifling. SN 12.41 refers to the "animosity" generated from when the precepts are broken.

So when you kill a mosquito no animosity is generated because it can't talk English?

[DooDoot]

So when you kill a mosquito no animosity is generated because it can't talk English?

You posted drugs, adultery, theft is "trifling". Best you work on that rather than post more nonsense. The Buddha often said executioners do their duty for the King by executing thieves & adulterers .

[DooDoot]

He is also fully freed from the four states of woe, and therefore, incapable of committing the six major wrongdoings.[7]

[7] Abhithanani; i. matricide, ii. patricide, iii. the murder of arahants (the Consummate Ones), iv. the shedding of the Buddha's blood, v. causing schism in the Sangha, and vi. pernicious false beliefs (niyata micca ditthi).

"Any evil action he may still do by deed, word or thought, he is incapable of concealing it; since it has been proclaimed that such concealing is impossible for one who has seen the Path (of Nibbana).[8]

[8] He is a sotapanna, stream-enterer, one who has attained the first stage of sanctity.

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn ... .piya.html

10. "With his gaining of insight he abandons three states of mind, namely self-illusion, doubt, and indulgence in meaningless rites and rituals, should there be any. He is also fully freed from the four states of woe, and therefore, incapable of committing the six major wrongdoings. This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

11. "Any evil action he may still do by deed, word or thought, he is incapable of concealing it; since it has been proclaimed that such concealing is impossible for one who has seen the Path (of Nibbana).[8] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

Looks like the topic has ended.

[SarathW]

So when you kill a mosquito no animosity is generated because it can't talk English?

You posted drugs, adultery, theft is "trifling". Best you work on that rather than post more nonsense. The Buddha often said executioners do their duty for the King by executing thieves & adulterers .

So executioner can become a Sotapanna and he still can work for the king killing people?

[DooDoot]

So executioner can become a Sotapanna and he still can work for the king killing people?

Most of the people in the world are non-Buddhists. The executioner is a non-Buddhist but they execute bad rich playboy 'Buddhists' that believe adultery is OK & fun.

The king would say: ‘Go, my men, and tie this man’s arms tightly behind his back with a strong rope. Shave his head and march him from street to street and square to square to the beating of a harsh drum. Then take him out the south gate and there, to the south of the city, chop off his head.’ The king’s men would do as they were told. Then a bystander might think: ‘This man must have done a truly bad and reprehensible deed, a capital offense. There’s no way I’d ever do such a bad and reprehensible deed, a capital offense.’

For a long time you’ve been bandits, arrested for raiding villages, highway robbery, or adultery. And the flow of blood you’ve shed when your head was chopped off ... is more than the water in the four oceans.

[DooDoot]

It is a good point DD (but there is flaws in it), but where does it say that other Ariya is capable of killing a living creature?

Looks like Snp 2.1 proves you & Santa100 were wrong. You makes a lot of effort on this topic.

Thus, monks, there are twenty factors siding with skillfulness and twenty with unskillfulness .

MN 117

A person given to wrong effort has right effort by which to avoid it.

MN 8

Bye

[SarathW]

What about trifle shop lifting, hanky panky with your neighbours wife , white lies and just a puff of grass?

The above is not trifling. SN 12.41 refers to the "animosity" generated from when the precepts are broken.

That you believe they are "trifling" demonstrates your personal views about sila.

I think Sotapanna can consume alcohol. You find a lot of Sotapanna monks consume alcohol!