Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by SarathW »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:57 am arguing about a bug


how did it come to this?
I think this discussion is in relation to intentional killing. (bug or a human or animal)
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retrofuturist
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

There's a lot of irrelevant meta-discussion here.... expect some of it to disappear.

Please try harder to critique the message, not the messenger.

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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DooDoot
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by DooDoot »

santa100 wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:01 am Don't you worry, you'll never ever escape my questions:
Your questions are pointless because you have not presented any suttas to support your claims.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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santa100
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by santa100 »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:06 am
santa100 wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:01 am Don't you worry, you'll never ever escape my questions:
Your questions are pointless because you have not presented any suttas to support your claims.
I did not make any claim. It was you who made 2 wild claims below.

Please provide suttas refs for your claims:
DooDoot wrote:"A puthujjana that has not renounced killing insects may attain stream-entry without renouncing"
AND:
DooDoot wrote:"One who's already attained Stream-entry can still intentionally kill an insect"
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DooDoot
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by DooDoot »

santa100 wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:07 am It was you who made 2 wild claims below.

Please provide suttas refs for your claims:
My claims are not "wild". It is your claims that are "wild".

For example, MN 119 appears to say the perfect ability to tolerate mosquitoes occurs with 4th jhana, which is not sotapanna:
Furthermore, a mendicant, giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, enters and remains in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness.....

You can expect ten benefits when mindfulness of the body has been cultivated, developed, and practiced, made a vehicle and a basis, kept up, consolidated, and properly implemented.

They prevail over desire and discontent, and live having mastered desire and discontent whenever they arose.

They prevail over fear and dread, and live having mastered fear and dread whenever they arose.

They endure cold, heat, hunger, and thirst; the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, and reptiles; rude and unwelcome criticism; and put up with physical pain—sharp, severe, acute, unpleasant, disagreeable, and life-threatening.

They get the four absorptions—blissful meditations in the present life that belong to the higher mind—when they want, without trouble or difficulty.

They wield the many kinds of psychic power: multiplying themselves and becoming one again … They control the body as far as the Brahmā realm.

With clairaudience that is purified and superhuman, they hear both kinds of sounds, human and divine, whether near or far. …

They understand the minds of other beings and individuals, having comprehended them with their own mind. …

They recollect many kinds of past lives :shock: , with features and details.

With clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, they see sentient beings passing away and being reborn—inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, in a good place or a bad place. They understand how sentient beings are reborn according to their deeds.

They realize the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life. And they live having realized it with their own insight due to the ending of defilements.

MN 119
I think MN 119 supports Nanavira's claim about the sotapanna superstitions of the run-of-the-mill Sri Lankan. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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santa100
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by santa100 »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:25 am My claims are not "wild". It is your claims that are "wild".

For example, MN 119 appears to say the ability to tolerate mosquitoes occurs with 4th jhana, which is not sotapanna...
Don't give me ifs, buts, or "appears". I've asked you very specific clear-cut questions for specific clear-cut support to your 2 wild claims below, but you continuously dodge them.

Please provide suttas refs for your claims:
DooDoot wrote:"A puthujjana that has not renounced killing insects may attain stream-entry without renouncing"
AND:
DooDoot wrote:"One who's already attained Stream-entry can still intentionally kill an insect"
By the way, what's with your racist remark: "run-of-the-mill Sri Lankan"? You have aproblem with Sri Lankan? Just asking, cuz I'm American, but SarathW is Sri Lankan (I think).
Last edited by santa100 on Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by DooDoot »

santa100 wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:29 am I ask you very specific clear-cut questions to provide exact support to your 2 wild claims below, but you continuously dodge them.
Please don't accuse others of your own shortcomings.

A person that goes into a 3 month retreat in a mosquito free residence can attain stream-entry without ever renouncing to kill a mosquito. This is so simple, obviously, there is no sutta to support this. The Buddha didn't teach kindergarten.

As I posted, it is said of an Arahant:
They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’

Such a mendicant endures cold, heat, hunger, and thirst; the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, and reptiles; rude and unwelcome criticism; and puts up with physical pain—sharp, severe, acute, unpleasant, disagreeable, and life-threatening.

https://suttacentral.net/mn125/en/sujato
Again, the suttas say an Arahant is incapable of killing a living creature:
[1] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to intentionally deprive a living being of life. [2] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to take, in the manner of stealing, what is not given. [3] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to engage in sexual intercourse. [4] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to tell a conscious lie. [5] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to consume stored-up sensual things as he did before, when he was a householder.''

https://suttacentral.net/an9.7/en/thanissaro
MN 115 say a stream-enterer cannot commit the five heinous crimes.

The ideas of yourself & SarathW sound like the nonsense pointed out by Nanavira about Sri Lankan Buddhism.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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santa100
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by santa100 »

DooDoot wrote:Please don't accuse others of your own shortcomings.
Please, you know shortcomings are all yours. And don't even try to pull your same old smoke and mirrors trick by diverting the discussion toward Arahants. We're talking about Sotapannas, so I'll repeat my questions:

Please provide suttas refs for your claims:
DooDoot wrote:"A puthujjana that has not renounced killing insects may attain stream-entry without renouncing"
AND:
DooDoot wrote:"One who's already attained Stream-entry can still intentionally kill an insect"
By the way, what's with your racist remark: "run-of-the-mill Sri Lankan"? You have a problem with Sri Lankan? Just asking, cuz I'm American, but SarathW is Sri Lankan (I think).
Last edited by santa100 on Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by DooDoot »

santa100 wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:42 am By the way, what's with your racist remark: "run-of-the-mill Sri Lankan"? You have aproblem with Sri Lankan? Just asking, cuz I'm American, but SarathW is Sri Lankan
You need to address the above the admin Retrofuturist because he posted the above characteristic in a quote from Nanavira.
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
SarathW
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by SarathW »

A person that goes into a 3 month retreat in a mosquito free residence can attain stream-entry without ever renouncing to kill a mosquito.
What if a fly go through his nose?
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DooDoot
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:44 am What if a fly go through his nose?
Break his nose trying to kill it? :thinking:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
santa100
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by santa100 »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:44 am
santa100 wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:42 am By the way, what's with your racist remark: "run-of-the-mill Sri Lankan"? You have aproblem with Sri Lankan? Just asking, cuz I'm American, but SarathW is Sri Lankan
You need to address the above the admin Retrofuturist because he posted the above characteristic in a quote from Nanavira.
Nope, it came out of your mouth, so it's you who's gonna have to explain it. I repeat:

Please provide suttas refs for your claims:
DooDoot wrote:"A puthujjana that has not renounced killing insects may attain stream-entry without renouncing"
AND:
DooDoot wrote:"One who's already attained Stream-entry can still intentionally kill an insect"
By the way, what's with your racist remark: "run-of-the-mill Sri Lankan"? You have a problem with Sri Lankan? Just asking, cuz I'm American, but SarathW is Sri Lankan(I think).
Last edited by santa100 on Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by DooDoot »

santa100 wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:42 am by diverting the discussion toward Arahants.
Sorry but its not a diversion. The suttas say an Arahant is incapable of killing a living creature. It follows logically, non-Arahants must be capable.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by DooDoot »

santa100 wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:46 am By the way, what's with your racist remark: "run-of-the-mill Sri Lankan"? You have a problem with Sri Lankan? Just asking, cuz I'm American, but SarathW is Sri Lankan(I think).
Nanavira said:
Quite in general, I find that the Buddhists of Ceylon are remarkably complacent at being the preservers and inheritors of the Buddha's Teaching, and remarkably ignorant of what the Buddha actually taught. Except by a few learned theras (who are dying out), the contents of the Suttas are practically unknown.
American explains the way you write. That said, your calling yourself "American" sounds racist to me.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
santa100
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by santa100 »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:46 am
santa100 wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:42 am by diverting the discussion toward Arahants.
Sorry but its not a diversion. The suttas say an Arahant is incapable of killing a living creature. It follows logically, non-Arahants must be capable.
What a pity to see your logic. So, say I, Santa, is incapable of eating sh..., it follows logically, that non-Santa (you, DooDoot) must be capable of eating sh...? Anyway, back to my questions:

Please provide suttas refs for your claims:
DooDoot wrote:"A puthujjana that has not renounced killing insects may attain stream-entry without renouncing"
AND:
DooDoot wrote:"One who's already attained Stream-entry can still intentionally kill an insect"
By the way, what's with your racist remark: "run-of-the-mill Sri Lankan"? You have a problem with Sri Lankan? Just asking, cuz I'm American, but SarathW is Sri Lankan(I think). Hey SarathW, take over for I have to cruise. Will pick up again tomorrow.
Last edited by santa100 on Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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