Yes, I tend to agree. Though some of the nidanas are cyclical in nature.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Spiny,
True, but nowhere anywhere in any scripture is there to be found this notion of it being a "cycle". It's as if the subsequent "wheel of life" diagram has retrospectively been absorbed into mainstream understanding.Spiny Norman wrote:There isn't a consensus on what the nidanas represent, just a lot of interpretations.
My action about the 12 dependent origination
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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination
Hello:retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
I mean it's not a cycle, and the suttas never taught it as a cycle.2600htz wrote:What do u mean by dependent origination being a cycle or not being a cycle?
For more information, see: Is There Scriptural Justification for The Wheel
Metta,
Paul.
I get the danger of dependent origination being taught as a model of transmigration, in the sense that some people might take it as a philosophy,
or something that can only be seen in the course of 3 lifetimes, in a basic way.
And i wouldn´t go as far as saying that the last link (aging,death,pain,despair,etc) its the cause of the first (ignorance), but definitely there is a cycle happening in between, that can be seen microscopically (in the course of a tiny unit of time), or macroscopically (in the course of many lifetimes).
Regards.
Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination
Looked at in detail, the scheme contains many cycles and feedback loops and at various levels -- c.f. Thanissaro Bhikku's2600htz wrote:...And i wouldn´t go as far as saying that the last link (aging,death,pain,despair,etc) its the cause of the first (ignorance), but definitely there is a cycle happening in between, that can be seen microscopically (in the course of a tiny unit of time), or macroscopically (in the course of many lifetimes)...
"The Shape of Suffering". (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... fering.pdf)
Last edited by retrofuturist on Fri May 12, 2017 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Citation corrected
Reason: Citation corrected
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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination
Greetings,
There are several variants of the standard paticcasamuppada formula throughout the Pali Canon.
Whilst being different, none illustrate anything cyclical other than those that speak of the relationship between nama-rupa (name-and-form) and vinnana (consciousness). (e.g. DN 15). This "vortex" is a common theme in Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons and you can read more about it there if you're interested.
As highlighted above, however, there is nothing that connects the bottom to the top. Be wary of allowing vox-pop to be your Dhamma...
Metta,
Paul.
There are several variants of the standard paticcasamuppada formula throughout the Pali Canon.
Whilst being different, none illustrate anything cyclical other than those that speak of the relationship between nama-rupa (name-and-form) and vinnana (consciousness). (e.g. DN 15). This "vortex" is a common theme in Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons and you can read more about it there if you're interested.
As highlighted above, however, there is nothing that connects the bottom to the top. Be wary of allowing vox-pop to be your Dhamma...
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
There are several variants of the standard paticcasamuppada formula throughout the Pali Canon.
Whilst being different, none illustrate anything cyclical other than those that speak of the relationship between nama-rupa (name-and-form) and vinnana (consciousness). (e.g. DN 15). This "vortex" is a common theme in Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons and you can read more about it there if you're interested.
As highlighted above, however, there is nothing that connects the bottom to the top. Be wary of allowing vox-pop to be your Dhamma...
Metta,
Paul.
Hello:
Still don´t understand your point .
Definition of Cycle: "Serie of ocurrences that repeats or is repeated".
-Aging and death is a ocurrence that repeats or is repeated
-Birth is a ocurrence that repeats or is repeated
-etc.
What im missing?.
Regards.
Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination
I won't speak for retrofuturist but what I see that he is saying is that while people might see cycles in DO there is no actual talk about cycles in the sutta presentations of DO nor is there any suggestion that we should be thinking in terms of cycles except for what retrofuturist has mentioned.....if you see cycles there it is not because the suttas have prompted it except for what retrofuturist mentioned.
chownah
chownah
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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination
Greetings 2600htz,
But that aside, a more appropriate metaphor (if you must have one) would be a waterfall... it repeatedly functions due to flows, but it's not circular. The water from the bottom does not condition the water above. Only when the downstream flow stops, does the waterfall cease to function. In paticcasamuppada, the flows of sankharas arise due to ignorance.
(And what chownah has said above is correct...)
Metta,
Paul.
You're assuming there is a being, to whom these things could happen, and as such you're falsely projecting a self/being through time...2600htz wrote:-Aging and death is a ocurrence that repeats or is repeated
-Birth is a ocurrence that repeats or is repeated
-etc.
What im missing?.
But that aside, a more appropriate metaphor (if you must have one) would be a waterfall... it repeatedly functions due to flows, but it's not circular. The water from the bottom does not condition the water above. Only when the downstream flow stops, does the waterfall cease to function. In paticcasamuppada, the flows of sankharas arise due to ignorance.
(And what chownah has said above is correct...)
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination
2600: As you observe most interpretations of DO have something to say about the continuity of process from life to life. Ven Nanananda's interpretation, for example, differs from the three-life commentary version but is still relevant to the continuaton from life to life. See the Nibbana Sermons.
However, it is clear that no interpretation is quite as simple as a circle.
Mike
However, it is clear that no interpretation is quite as simple as a circle.
Mike
Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination
Hello:retrofuturist wrote:Greetings 2600htz,
You're assuming there is a being, to whom these things could happen, and as such you're falsely projecting a self/being through time...2600htz wrote:-Aging and death is a ocurrence that repeats or is repeated
-Birth is a ocurrence that repeats or is repeated
-etc.
What im missing?.
But that aside, a more appropriate metaphor (if you must have one) would be a waterfall... it repeatedly functions due to flows, but it's not circular. The water from the bottom does not condition the water above. Only when the downstream flow stops, does the waterfall cease to function. In paticcasamuppada, the flows of sankharas arise due to ignorance.
(And what chownah has said above is correct...)
Metta,
Paul.
But why i am assuming there is a being?, when have i used the word "circular" ?.
I have stated a definition of "cycle" in accordance with your waterfall metaphor, never otherwise.
Regards.
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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination
Greetings 2600htz,
Metta,
Paul.
Because you speak of a re-peating. The re in repeating signifies "again". If these are happening "again", what is the point of reference for which these "repeat" events could be said to be occurring "again"? Such words require a reference point to be meaningful, and that reference point is a self or a being (i.e. they are happening to "me" or to "you").2600htz wrote:But why i am assuming there is a being?, when have i used the word "circular" ?.
That's fine, I'm just trying to work out what your outstanding objection is...?2600htz wrote:I have stated a definition of "cycle" in accordance with your waterfall metaphor, never otherwise.
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination
Hello:retrofuturist wrote:Greetings 2600htz,
Because you speak of a re-peating. The re in repeating signifies "again". If these are happening "again", what is the point of reference for which makes these "repeat" events could be said to be occurring "again"? Such words require a reference point to be meaningful, and that reference point is a self or a being (i.e. they are happening to "me" or to "you").2600htz wrote:But why i am assuming there is a being?, when have i used the word "circular" ?.
That's fine, I'm just trying to work out what your outstanding objection is...?2600htz wrote:I have stated a definition of "cycle" in accordance with your waterfall metaphor, never otherwise.
Metta,
Paul.
Lets stay on the waterfall, its easier haha.
Im just stating that the waterfall is repeating a process of water flowing. And that doesn´t make a waterfall possesed of a self .
And im calling that repeating process of water flowing a "cycle".
Are we talking about the same thing ? -_-, my english is not so good haha.
Regards.
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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination
Greetings,
Metta,
Paul.
I'm not sure, but I think we've explained ourselves as much as is necessary to communicate our points, so I'm happy to leave it there.2600htz wrote:Are we talking about the same thing ? -_-, my english is not so good haha.
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination
Everything changes , nothing is permanent! That includes the notion of a cycle.
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth
Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination
You mean stopped “upstream” – so no water is coming down?. Or do you mean if a dam downstream stops the water, eventually the lake formed would engulf the waterfall?retrofuturist wrote:... waterfall... it repeatedly functions due to flows, but it's not circular. The water from the bottom does not condition the water above. Only when the downstream flow stops, does the waterfall cease to function.
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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination
Greetings CJMacie,
Just as rivers dry up in the absence of rain, sankharas dry up in the absence of avijja.
Metta,
Paul.
I mean no water reaches the waterfall's edge.cjmacie wrote:You mean stopped “upstream” – so no water is coming down?.retrofuturist wrote:... waterfall... it repeatedly functions due to flows, but it's not circular. The water from the bottom does not condition the water above. Only when the downstream flow stops, does the waterfall cease to function.
Just as rivers dry up in the absence of rain, sankharas dry up in the absence of avijja.
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."