Letting go of merit.

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SarathW
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Re: Letting go of merit.

Post by SarathW »

Another discussion related to this topic.


https://discourse.suttacentral.net/latest
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User156079
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Re: Letting go of merit.

Post by User156079 »

Make merit it puts you in a wholesome state and can be recollected to gladden the Mind. Read about Anathapindika The Chief Lay Disciple. Merit is great help on the Path.
Muluposatha Sutta..."There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects the devas, thus: 'There are the Devas of the Four Great Kings, the Devas of the Thirty-three, the Yama Devas, the Contented Devas[etc.]... Whatever generosity they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of generosity is present in me as well.
I had to stop feeding the birds because they defecate where they eat:(
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Nibbana
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Re: Letting go of merit.

Post by Nibbana »

User156079 wrote: I had to stop feeding the birds because they defecate where they eat:(
This was also happening. :)
"Then you understand the brilliance of the Buddha's teaching of anatta, goes right to the heart of everything. They say the Dhamma is the source, not going to it's consequences not papancha, but going right into the very middle, the very essence, the very heart, the atta what you take to be you. From the body into the mind thinking, from the mind into the doer, from the doer into the knower. You can see you're not the knower, you can see you're not the doer..."

-Ajahn Brahm
justindesilva
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Re: Letting go of merit.

Post by justindesilva »

Nibbana wrote:
User156079 wrote: I had to stop feeding the birds because they defecate where they eat:(
This was also happening. :)
Please read www.mahindaramatemple.com
It explains that merits accumulated from dana varies on intention and dana also helps to get rid of lobha.
chownah
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Re: Letting go of merit.

Post by chownah »

Nibbana wrote:Hopefully this experience can be helpful for you guys.

I have realised that at one point you also have to let go of merit.
I'm not saying that everyone should stop making merit, merit making was good for me to get rid of selfishness but from now one it has actually become a BIG problem.

The example for me was feeding the birds in the garden and donation to charities.
These things were actually fuelling or beginning to fuel the inner demons.
I had some nightmares a few days ago and I just couldn't figure out what was going on, I am practising the precepts and maintaining noble silence.
It felt like demons were grabbing me and I had difficulties breathing for days, when I stopped the merit it felt like that the demons were released.
It was like you're doing "good" and the "bad" is right behind it, you can't have the one without the other.

Don't get me wrong, making merit is good but for me it isn't any more from this point on.
When I stopped feeding the birds and stopped the donations my heart opened up further and it is now truly at peace.

Strange isn't it, I couldn't believe it for myself that I had to stop making merit.

This is truly unbelievable, but it is actually how I have experienced it.
This practise is so beautiful and so delicate that one has to contemplate every action, because even the good what one does can lead to suffering.

:anjali:
I really think you might benefit by reading the Dana Sutta:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
It explains about some different motivations for giving and what effect they might have.
Also, did you know that dana is only one way to make merit with two other ways being virtue and meditation.....you might benefit by reading thanisarro's article on merit:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... 177.than-1

You might find that there is more to making merit than what you have thought.
chownah
pegembara
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Re: Letting go of merit.

Post by pegembara »

If you must let go of merit, at the very least cultivate metta and the precepts. I see the teaching below as a progressive letting go of merit. The penultimate step being the cultivation of metta bearing fruitful results.
"Householder, regardless of whether a gift is coarse or refined, if it is given inattentively, disrespectfully, not with one's own hand, as if throwing it away, with the view that nothing will come of it: Wherever the result of that gift comes to fruition, one's mind will not incline to the enjoyment of splendid food, will not incline to the enjoyment of splendid clothing, will not incline to the enjoyment of splendid vehicles, will not incline to the enjoyment of the splendid five strings of sensuality. And one's sons & daughters, slaves, servants, & workers will not listen to one, will not lend ear, will not make their minds attend for the sake of knowledge. Why is that? Because that is the result of inattentive actions.

"If one with a confident mind were to undertake the training rules — refraining from taking life, refraining from taking what is not given, refraining from illicit sex, refraining from lying, refraining from distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness — that would be more fruitful than... if one with a confident mind were to go to the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha for refuge.

"If one were to develop even just one whiff of a heart of good will, that would be more fruitful than... if one with a confident mind were to undertake the training rules...

"If one were to develop even for just a finger-snap the perception of inconstancy, that would be more fruitful than the gift, the great gift, that Velāma the brahman gave, and [in addition to that] if one were to feed one person... 100 people consummate in view, and were to feed one once-returner... 100 once-returners, and were to feed one non-returner... 100 non-returners, and were to feed one arahant... 100 arahants, and were to feed one Private Buddha... 100 Private Buddhas, and were to feed a Tathagata — a worthy one, rightly self-awakened — and were to feed a community of monks headed by the Buddha, and were to have a dwelling built and dedicated to the Community of the four directions, and with a confident mind were to go to the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha for refuge, and with a confident mind were to undertake the training rules — refraining from taking life, refraining from taking what is not given, refraining from illicit sex, refraining from lying, refraining from distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness — and were to develop even just one whiff of a heart of good will."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Nibbana
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Re: Letting go of merit.

Post by Nibbana »

pegembara wrote:If you must let go of merit, at the very least cultivate metta and the precepts. I see the teaching below as a progressive letting go of merit. The penultimate step being the cultivation of metta bearing fruitful results.
"Householder, regardless of whether a gift is coarse or refined, if it is given inattentively, disrespectfully, not with one's own hand, as if throwing it away, with the view that nothing will come of it: Wherever the result of that gift comes to fruition, one's mind will not incline to the enjoyment of splendid food, will not incline to the enjoyment of splendid clothing, will not incline to the enjoyment of splendid vehicles, will not incline to the enjoyment of the splendid five strings of sensuality. And one's sons & daughters, slaves, servants, & workers will not listen to one, will not lend ear, will not make their minds attend for the sake of knowledge. Why is that? Because that is the result of inattentive actions.

"If one with a confident mind were to undertake the training rules — refraining from taking life, refraining from taking what is not given, refraining from illicit sex, refraining from lying, refraining from distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness — that would be more fruitful than... if one with a confident mind were to go to the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha for refuge.

"If one were to develop even just one whiff of a heart of good will, that would be more fruitful than... if one with a confident mind were to undertake the training rules...

"If one were to develop even for just a finger-snap the perception of inconstancy, that would be more fruitful than the gift, the great gift, that Velāma the brahman gave, and [in addition to that] if one were to feed one person... 100 people consummate in view, and were to feed one once-returner... 100 once-returners, and were to feed one non-returner... 100 non-returners, and were to feed one arahant... 100 arahants, and were to feed one Private Buddha... 100 Private Buddhas, and were to feed a Tathagata — a worthy one, rightly self-awakened — and were to feed a community of monks headed by the Buddha, and were to have a dwelling built and dedicated to the Community of the four directions, and with a confident mind were to go to the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha for refuge, and with a confident mind were to undertake the training rules — refraining from taking life, refraining from taking what is not given, refraining from illicit sex, refraining from lying, refraining from distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness — and were to develop even just one whiff of a heart of good will."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
The Sutta is very clear pointing to the experience I'm having.

:anjali:
"Then you understand the brilliance of the Buddha's teaching of anatta, goes right to the heart of everything. They say the Dhamma is the source, not going to it's consequences not papancha, but going right into the very middle, the very essence, the very heart, the atta what you take to be you. From the body into the mind thinking, from the mind into the doer, from the doer into the knower. You can see you're not the knower, you can see you're not the doer..."

-Ajahn Brahm
User156079
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Re: Letting go of merit.

Post by User156079 »

I have been contemplating giving up certain meritorious deeds as well, ie teaching others as often i seemingly neglect solitude and meditation to teach or advice others and make excuses like "it's a good deed, therefore i should do it" based on craving/aversion but i am starting to realize that an Arahant probably would not at all go out of his/her way to teach.
santa100
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Re: Letting go of merit.

Post by santa100 »

Nibbana wrote:The Sutta is very clear pointing to the experience I'm having.
It's worth noting Prof. Piya Tan's comment to that sutta:
AN 9.20 wrote:The most significant part of the Velāma Sutta is its closing, that is, the statement that the perception of impermanence (anicca,saññā), if done “for even the moment of a finger-snap” [§5b] is better than the cultivation of lovingkindness, or observing the precepts, or going for refuge, or building a monastery, or feeding the Buddha, or feeding the Sangha, or doing any other kind of material giving. It is important to see also this in proper context: it does not mean here that the perception of impermanence could or should be done to the exclusion of the other mentioned teachings (especially the cultivation of lovingkindness, the observance of precepts, going for refuge and practising charity). Rather, they should be practised in relation to one another, with priority given to the perception of impermanence
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Akashad
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Re: Letting go of merit.

Post by Akashad »

It could be just Mara disuading you from doing good.As long as one isn't enlightened yet things as basic as merit is always important.Meditation produces Greater merit but light cannot be dark.Doing Merit cannot produce bad results.This is wrong view.Whatever bad results you speak of came from other bad seeds that was planted either in this life or previous.For example when I first started meditating I experienced such extreme nightmares it was really awful but I kept at it and many years later it went away on it's own.Also when my dhamma practice goes well things crop up that try to dissuade me in the form of dreams etc.Please remember light cannot be dark.Thinking that doing merit is useless is wrong view let alone thinking that doing Merit is bad.Even if you intentions weren't as sincere when you do merit its STILL something than if you don't Give at all.
This is my 2 cents.
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Letting go of merit.

Post by salayatananirodha »

Akashad wrote: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:47 am It could be just Mara disuading you from doing good.
:twothumbsup:
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/Iti/iti22.html wrote:This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: “Monks, don’t be afraid of acts of merit. This is a synonym for what is blissful, desirable, pleasing, endearing, charming–i.e., acts of merit. I directly know that, having long performed meritorious deeds, I long experienced desirable, pleasing, endearing, charming results. Having developed a mind of good will for seven years, then for seven eons of contraction & expansion I didn’t return to this world. Whenever the eon was contracting, I entered the [realm of] Radiance. Whenever the eon was expanding, I reappeared in an empty Brahma-abode. There I was Brahma, the Great Brahma, the Unconquered Conqueror, Total Seer, Wielder of Power. Then for thirty-six times I was Sakka, ruler of the gods. For many hundreds of times I was a king, a wheel-turning emperor, a righteous king of Dhamma, conqueror of the four corners of the earth, maintaining stable control over the countryside, endowed with the seven treasures1 –to say nothing of the times I was a local king. The thought occurred to me, ‘Of what action of mine is this the fruit, of what action the result, that I now have such great power & might?’ Then the thought occurred to me, ‘This is the fruit of my three [types of] action, the result of three types of action, that I now have such great power & might: i.e., generosity, self-control, & restraint.’”
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befriend
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Re: Letting go of merit.

Post by befriend »

Not sure if what I said was accurate
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Letting go of merit.

Post by salayatananirodha »

dylanj wrote: Thu May 11, 2017 5:03 pm
Nibbana wrote:Here is a beautiful quote from Ajahn Lee on this subject:
As for greed, aversion, and delusion, they're very big, very powerful, very well known. The mother of all these Maras is ignorance (avijja). Everything comes out of ignorance. Goodness comes from ignorance. Evil comes from ignorance. To call things by their proper names, ignorance is the requisite condition for fabrications (sankhara), and fabrications, when they arise, come in three sorts:

meritorious fabrications: intentions and considerations that go in the direction of giving rise to goodness;
demeritorious fabrications: thoughts that go in the direction of what is evil, corrupt, and improper, defiling the mind and making it lose its luster; and
neutral fabrications: thoughts that are neither meritorious nor evil. For instance, when we think about going to the market tomorrow, or about going to work in our field, or about taking a bath or eating a meal. When thoughts like this arise in the mind, they're called neutral fabrications: thinking that isn't yet either good or bad.
Full text can be found here:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/demons.html

:anjali:
You are dangerously misapprehending this...You do not transcend the ordinary foundational sort of merit that leads to happiness in this & future lives by simply stopping to do it. You transcend it by performing goodness of a totally higher & more subtle sort, i.e. Dhamma practice. The Buddha said there are 4 kinds of action:

-Dark with dark result
-Brith with bright result
-Both dark & bright with both dark & bright results
-Neither with neither result, the action that conduces to the ending of action

The last is still good. The actions done by ariyapuggala are described as "kusala" meaning wholesome, good. The difference between this action & the first sort is that it leads to nibbāna only whereas the latter leads to pleasant future experiences. But the action that is "dark with dark result" is also described as kusala because it too is part of the path to nibbāna, it lays the groundwork for the transcendental sort of goodness that is to be done.

The Buddha's lay followers such as Anāthapiṇḍika & Visākhā spent their entire lives giving & giving to the Sangha, with the former almost going bankrupt as a result. Keep in mind that giving to ariyapuggala has an unspeakably greater result than giving to normal humans, let alone animals. Forgive my bluntness but you are far off course if you think you have already surpassed the stage of creating a basic foundation of merit by feeding birds. In fact, it sounds like you are emotionally unstable (given these experiences you describe) & thus it is likely that you have loads of more work today before you can say you have a solid foundation. That is okay, I am emotionally unstable too, but these problems do not originate from excessive generosity.

Anyway, as a lay person I don't think you should ever stop performing merit. It will never hinder your progress. Someone aiming for arahantship is going to devote themselves solely to transcendental kusala action because that is necessary for that penetration. But even the Buddha's non-returner lay followers continued to perform merit. Are you a non-returner?
good post, but im fairly certain dylan meant "But the action that is "bright with bright result" is also described as kusala because it too is part of the path to nibbāna, it lays the groundwork for the transcendental sort of goodness that is to be done." he's not alive to edit his comment but it should stand that this is what he meant
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