The stilling of all fabrications?

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BasementBuddhist
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Re: The stilling of all fabrications?

Post by BasementBuddhist »

freedom wrote:But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance that body does not exist, that speech does not exist, that mind (intellect) does not exist. This is the stilling of volitional formations. SN12.25
With this bit right here, are you saying that body as it is, the thing that has the fingers that are typing this message, does not exist?
freedom
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Re: The stilling of all fabrications?

Post by freedom »

BasementBuddhist wrote:
freedom wrote:But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance that body does not exist, that speech does not exist, that mind (intellect) does not exist. This is the stilling of volitional formations. SN12.25
With this bit right here, are you saying that body as it is, the thing that has the fingers that are typing this message, does not exist?
The body is there if there is a body, but with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance, the body which can be a condition for pleasure and unpleasure is no longer exist. What is there is no longer the condition for pleasure and unpleasure.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.
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BasementBuddhist
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Re: The stilling of all fabrications?

Post by BasementBuddhist »

freedom wrote:
BasementBuddhist wrote:
freedom wrote:But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance that body does not exist, that speech does not exist, that mind (intellect) does not exist. This is the stilling of volitional formations. SN12.25
With this bit right here, are you saying that body as it is, the thing that has the fingers that are typing this message, does not exist?
The body is there if there is a body, but with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance, the body which can be a condition for pleasure and unpleasure is no longer exist. What is there is no longer the condition for pleasure and unpleasure.
Okay, thank you. I thought that was what you meant, just wanted to clarify. :hug:
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Re: The stilling of all fabrications?

Post by Spiny Norman »

freedom wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:And does anyone know what this bit means: "the relinquishment of all acquisitions"?
That means we need to give up everything that has the "my".
So the letting go of self-view, and the conceit "I am"?
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Re: The stilling of all fabrications?

Post by Spiny Norman »

R1111 wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
R1111 wrote:Fabrications are of 3Cs, stilling of all fabrications is the Cessation of the Aggregates [Suffering].
Do you mean cessation of the clinging aggregates? I'm thinking of the Khanda sutta, where clinging aggregates ( = dukkha ) appear to be a subset of the aggregates generally. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

I think complete cessation of the aggregates would be the complete cessation of experience, aka death.

Another possibility here would be cessation of the sankharas aggregate, or of conceiving ( see MN1 ).
All of it ceases
"What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."
It is quite a lot like dying actually in sense that "the connection" with the body[sense doors] & the world is ceased, further experience is non arising, instead the Deathless[Unmade Element] is realized until the Aggregates arise anew.
I don't understand what you mean by "All of it ceases", given the OP passage is describing Nibbana, and not death. The aggregates represent our experience, and clearly an Arahant continues to experience.
"An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things — when developed & pursued — lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

As for the cessation of perception of feeling, that is a temporary meditative state, and not a description of Nibbana. I don't see how it is relevant to the OP passage, which is describing Nibbana.
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, his mind leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion, inclines to seclusion."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BasementBuddhist
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Re: The stilling of all fabrications?

Post by BasementBuddhist »

The 5 aggregates are the body, thoughts, perceptions, feeling, and conciousness. Roughly. These things only cease upon death or temporarily in Jahanna. Spiny, just go read the Samyutta Nikaya and decide for yourself. The answers you want are in book 2, the book of causation. I am 100% sure, however, that stilling fabrications means stilling the patterns, tendancies, intentions, and habits of our body, mind, and speech. You're getting answers from people who haven't read it and who get there answers from people who haven't read it. The buddha himself gives you the answer in the nikayas, in very plain terms. I can even link you to a copy if you would like.
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Re: The stilling of all fabrications?

Post by Spiny Norman »

BasementBuddhist wrote:The 5 aggregates are the body, thoughts, perceptions, feeling, and conciousness. Roughly. These things only cease upon death or temporarily in Jahanna. Spiny, just go read the Samyutta Nikaya and decide for yourself. The answers you want are in book 2, the book of causation. I am 100% sure, however, that stilling fabrications means stilling the patterns, tendancies, intentions, and habits of our body, mind, and speech. You're getting answers from people who haven't read it and who get there answers from people who haven't read it. The buddha himself gives you the answer in the nikayas, in very plain terms. I can even link you to a copy if you would like.
I have read the Samyutta Nikaya, and I agree about the aggregates. I think it's the sankharas nidana which is stilled here, which I think is what you're describing.
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R1111 = rightviewftw
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Re: The stilling of all fabrications?

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw »

Spiny Norman wrote: As for the cessation of perception of feeling, that is a temporary meditative state, and not a description of Nibbana. I don't see how it is relevant to the OP passage, which is describing Nibbana.
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, his mind leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion, inclines to seclusion."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Nibbana is the cessation of perception and feeling. By all of it i mean the cessation of aggregates, they arise again because it is not Parinibbana.
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended.
The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment.
"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications. When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have ceased. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of neither-perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has ceased. When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perception & feeling have ceased. When a monk's effluents have ended, passion has ceased, aversion has ceased, delusion has ceased.
"If someone were to say: 'This is the highest pleasure that can be experienced,' I would not concede that. And why not? Because there is another kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime. And what is this pleasure? Here, by completely surmounting the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, a monk enters upon and abides in the cessation of perception and feeling. This is the other kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime.

"It may happen, Ananda, that Wanderers of other sects will be saying this: 'The recluse Gotama speaks of the Cessation of Perception and Feeling and describes it as pleasure. What is this (pleasure) and how is this (a pleasure)?'

"Those who say so, should be told: 'The Blessed One describes as pleasure not only the feeling of pleasure. But a Tathagata describes as pleasure whenever and whereinsoever it is obtained.'"
I mentioned death because of your statement
I think complete cessation of the aggregates would be the complete cessation of experience, aka death.
First of all i think it needs to be emphasized that Death is in no way a complete cessation of experience. Further Aggregates do cease either partially or fully, in Formless attainments Form ceases temporarily. With the attainment of Nibbana, all five cease temporarily. 8FNP is the path to cessation of experience, not death.
“And how, bhikkhus, are there four phases? I directly knew form, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. I directly knew feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation.
With the cessation of contact there is the cessation of feeling. This Noble Eightfold Path is the way leading to the cessation of feeling; that is, right view … right concentration.
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Re: The stilling of all fabrications?

Post by freedom »

BasementBuddhist wrote:
freedom wrote:As I understand, it is the volitional formations in dependent origination: the stilling of bodily, verbal, and mental volitional formation from all experiences. With the cessation of volitional formations, cessation of consciousness -> cessation of this whole mass of suffering. That's why "This is peace, this is exquisite."

Because volitional formations is defined as : bodily, verbal and mental volitional formation, we can see that it comes from name-and-form (nama-rupa). With volitional formation as condition, consciousness. This is why name-and-form can loop-back to consciousness and create endless loop of sufferings. Moreover, due to ignorance, volitional formations arise when contacting with experiences from the six senses (which are from name-and-form). With wisdom (or the cessation of ignorance), cessation of volitional formations (or the stilling of volition formations) -> cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

The interesting point is that the relationship between name-and-form -> volitional formations is not a dependent origination relationship. Therefore, it is not stable and fixed. It is breakable! Otherwise, there is no way we can break or still the volitional formations. So, we can use wisdom to still the volitional formations that come from our experiences and make an end to sufferings.
Can I ask why you think that volitional formations appear again after contact? According to Dependent origination and the suttas, Feelings arise from contact, not Volitional Formations. Either Pain/pleasure/neutral. From those craving. From those clinging. From that Existence. From that Birth. From that Aging-and-death.

I'm only asking because I'm intensely studying the Suttas right now, and if there is something I'm not getting, I want to understand it fully so that I may progress down the path.
Sorry, I missed this question last time...

As I understand, volitional formations is defined as bodily, verbal and mental volition formation. However, these bodily, verbal and mental aspects are components of name-and-form (namarupa). Name (nama) is defined as feeling, perception, intention, attention and contact.

Because volitional formations depend on name-and-form (as volitional formations' definition), with name-and-form as condition, volitional formations may arise. Without name-and-form, there is no volitional formations.

When there is contact, there is name-and-form (Remember that contact is defined as the meeting of sense-object, sense-faculty and sense-consciousness). With name-and-form as condition, volitional formations may arise. With volitional formations as condition, consciousness arises. With consciousness as condition, name-and-form arises. This is the loopback between consciousness and name-and-form. This is why volitional formations appears again after contact. Of course, with contact as condition, feeling must arise, but volitional formations may also arise together with feeling and continuing feeding to the loop.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.
freedom
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Re: The stilling of all fabrications?

Post by freedom »

Spiny Norman wrote:
freedom wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:And does anyone know what this bit means: "the relinquishment of all acquisitions"?
That means we need to give up everything that has the "my".
So the letting go of self-view, and the conceit "I am"?
I mean everything that we can put the "my" in. When there is "my", there is "I". When there is "I", there is "my". So, self-view and "I am" are included.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.
Spiny Norman
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Re: The stilling of all fabrications?

Post by Spiny Norman »

freedom wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote: So the letting go of self-view, and the conceit "I am"?
I mean everything that we can put the "my" in. When there is "my", there is "I". When there is "I", there is "my". So, self-view and "I am" are included.
I was referring to self-view and "I am" as fetters. As I see it these are habitual tendencies which result in us conceiving in terms of "me" and "mine".
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: The stilling of all fabrications?

Post by SarathW »

Spiny Norman wrote:And does anyone know what this bit means: "the relinquishment of all acquisitions"?
I think it is any acquisition of name and form. (Human,animal,Deva etc.)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: The stilling of all fabrications?

Post by vinasp »

Hi Spiny,

"An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things — when developed & pursued — lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness." [SN 22.122]

This is a teaching by Ven. Sariputta, he was responsible for teaching bhikkhus who were ordinary men on the wrong eightfold path.

They are called 'clinging aggregates' not because the arahant is clinging to them, but because they can potentially be clung to by anyone else.

So there are two ways to understand the aggregates, just like everything else in the teachings.

The ordinary man understands them in a literal way.

The noble disciple understands them as wrong conceptualizations.

To conceptualize any form in the wrong way is to 'objectify' it, that is, to make it into an object for a subject.

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: The stilling of all fabrications?

Post by freedom »

Spiny Norman wrote:
freedom wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote: So the letting go of self-view, and the conceit "I am"?
I mean everything that we can put the "my" in. When there is "my", there is "I". When there is "I", there is "my". So, self-view and "I am" are included.
I was referring to self-view and "I am" as fetters. As I see it these are habitual tendencies which result in us conceiving in terms of "me" and "mine".
Just look at whatever you can put the "my" to it. They all are impermanent, suffering and not self. What will happen to you when sickness, aging-and-death, suffering, missing, lost... come to them (if they are yours)?
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.
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