Why Sukaha (third Jhana) is more refine than Pithy (second Jhana)?

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SarathW
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Why Sukaha (third Jhana) is more refine than Pithy (second Jhana)?

Post by SarathW »

Why Sukaha (third Jhana) is higher than Pithy (second Jhana)?
In other words why Sukaha does not come before Pithy?
This question is based on the following Sutta.

http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... am-e.html3
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paul
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Re: Why Sukaha (third Jhana) is more refine than Pithy (second Jhana)?

Post by paul »

Piti is joyful interest when concentration successfully focusses on the object:

…Píti, however, is not a feeling or a sensation, and hence does not belong to the feeling-group (vedaná-kkhandha), but may be described psychologically as 'joyful interest'. As such it may be associated with wholesome as well as with unwholesome and neutral states of consciousness.
A high degree of rapture is characteristic of certain stages in meditative concentration, in insight practice (vipassaná) as well as in the first two absorptions (jhána, q.v.). In the latter it appears as one of the factors of absorption (jhánanga; s. jhána) and is strongest in the 2nd absorption. —-“Buddhist Dictionary”, Ven. Nyanatiloka.

‘Successfully focussing’ is described in the seven factors of enlightenment where energy develops firmness resulting in rapture:

“In one who investigates and examines that state with wisdom and embarks upon a full inquiry into it, tireless energy is aroused. On whatever occasion tireless energy is aroused in a bhikkhu who investigates and examines that state with wisdom and embarks upon a full inquiry into it—on that occasion the energy enlightenment factor is aroused in him, and he develops it, and by development it comes to fulfilment in him.

“In one who has aroused energy, unworldly rapture arises. On whatever occasion unworldly rapture arises in a bhikkhu who has aroused energy—
on that occasion the rapture enlightenment factor is aroused in him, and he develops it, and by development it comes to fulfilment in him.”—MN 118, (Sutta Central translation).

"When defined in terms of agency, piti is that which creates interest in the object; when defined in terms of its nature it is the interest in the object. Because it creates a positive interest in the object, the jhana factor of rapture is able to counter and suppress the hindrance of ill will, a state of aversion implying a negative evaluation of the object."---"The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation", Bhante Gunaratana.
Last edited by paul on Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: Why Sukaha (third Jhana) is more refine than Pithy (second Jhana)?

Post by DooDoot »

paul wrote:…Píti, however, is not a feeling or a sensation, and hence does not belong to the feeling-group (vedaná-kkhandha), but may be described psychologically as 'joyful interest'.
Never heard this before. Nyanatiloka is saying here piti is sankhara aggregate. Any sutta references for this? Thanks
On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to rapture'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to pleasure';... On that occasion the monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — careful attention to in-&-out breaths — is classed as a feeling among feelings.... MN 118
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pyluyten
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Re: Why Sukaha (third Jhana) is more refine than Pithy (second Jhana)?

Post by pyluyten »

paul wrote:Piti is joyful interest when concentration successfully focusses on the object:

…Píti, however, is not a feeling or a sensation, and hence does not belong to the feeling-group (vedaná-kkhandha), but may be described psychologically as 'joyful interest'. As such it may be associated with wholesome as well as with unwholesome and neutral states of consciousness.
A high degree of rapture is characteristic of certain stages in meditative concentration, in insight practice (vipassaná) as well as in the first two absorptions (jhána, q.v.). In the latter it appears as one of the factors of absorption (jhánanga; s. jhána) and is strongest in the 2nd absorption. —-“Buddhist Dictionary”, Ven. Nyanatiloka.
thanks paul, this is a bit technical for some of us. we might use several examples
- goose flesh. would it rather sign piti or sukha? or would you consider we cannot link it like this?
- shivers
- feeling of airy lightness

generaly i have read, excitement is piti, while calm is sukha, but i think this might be misunderstanding. you might help providing more useful usages of these terms.
SarathW
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Re: Why Sukaha (third Jhana) is more refine than Pithy (second Jhana)?

Post by SarathW »

Never heard this before. Nyanatiloka is saying here piti is sankhara aggregate. Any sutta references for this? Thanks
You find Piti in Abhidhamma as a particuar mental factor under Sankhara aggregate.
The Abhidhamma lists 52 kinds of cetasikas. One is feeling (vedanā), another is perception
(saññā). The remaining 50 are grouped together under the term saṅkhārā.

https://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh322.pdf
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form
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Re: Why Sukaha (third Jhana) is more refine than Pithy (second Jhana)?

Post by form »

One has rapture as the factors, one has not, which one is more stable?
Ruud
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Re: Why Sukaha (third Jhana) is more refine than Pithy (second Jhana)?

Post by Ruud »

I recently heard the difference between the two described (in a talk by Dhammaruwan) as follows:

You are walking in the desert, very thirsty. All of a sudden you see an oasis. The joy of seeing the oasis is piti, the pleasure of drinking the water is sukha.

I don't know where the simile comes from but I found it a rather vivid description which also clearly shows a progression from piti towards sukha.
Dry up what pertains to the past,
do not take up anything to come later.
If you will not grasp in the middle,
you will live at peace.
—Snp.5.11,v.1099 (tr. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)

Whatever is will be was. —Ven. Ñānamoli, A Thinkers Notebook, §221
santa100
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Re: Why Sukaha (third Jhana) is more refine than Pithy (second Jhana)?

Post by santa100 »

Ven. Nanamoli in his Vism. translation rendered piti as happiness and sukha as bliss. From Vism. IV.100:
And wherever the two are associated, happiness is the contentedness at getting a desirable object, and bliss is the actual experiencing of it when got. Where there is happiness there is bliss (pleasure); but where there is bliss there is not necessarily happiness. Happiness is included in the formations aggregate; bliss is included in the feeling aggregate. If a man, exhausted in a desert, saw or heard about a pond on the edge of a wood, he would have happiness; if he went into the wood’s shade and used the water, he would have bliss. And it should be understood that this is said because they are obvious on such occasions."
SarathW
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Re: Why Sukaha (third Jhana) is more refine than Pithy (second Jhana)?

Post by SarathW »

Thank you, Paul and Santa.
This is the answer I was looking for.
Please continue the discussion.
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DooDoot
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Re: Why Sukaha (third Jhana) is more refine than Pithy (second Jhana)?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote:You find Piti in Abhidhamma as a particuar mental factor under Sankhara aggregate.
The Abhidhamma lists 52 kinds of cetasikas. One is feeling (vedanā), another is perception
(saññā). The remaining 50 are grouped together under the term saṅkhārā.
Abhidhamma is not a 'sutta reference' & unrelated to my request for a sutta reference. It appears quite obvious piti is classified as a feeling (vedana) in the suttas (unless this can shown to be otherwise).
SarathW wrote:Thank you, Paul and Santa.
This is the answer I was looking for.
Please continue the discussion.
Two questionable non-sutta answers are what you are looking for to answer a question about a sutta? SN 36.11 refers to the calming of sankharas. Obviously sukha is 'higher' or 'more advanced' than piti because sukha is calmer than piti & is closer to Nibbana. SN 36.11 would be the answer I would look for.
And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications. When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have ceased. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of neither-perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has ceased. When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perception & feeling have ceased. When a monk's effluents have ended, passion has ceased, aversion has ceased, delusion has ceased.

"Then, monk, I have also taught the step-by-step stilling of fabrications. When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has been stilled. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have been stilled. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has been stilled. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has been stilled. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has been stilled. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space has been stilled. When one has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness has been stilled. When one has attained the dimension of neither-perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has been stilled. When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perception & feeling have been stilled. When a monk's effluents have ended, passion has been stilled, aversion has been stilled, delusion has been stilled.

SN 36.11
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SarathW
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Re: Why Sukaha (third Jhana) is more refine than Pithy (second Jhana)?

Post by SarathW »

Abhidhamma is not a 'sutta reference' & unrelated to my request for a sutta reference. It appears quite obvious piti is classified as a feeling (vedana) in the suttas (unless this can shown to be otherwise).
At this stage the burden of proof on your side.
I will be very great full to you if you can find Sutta reference to show Piti is a feeling.
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Re: Why Sukaha (third Jhana) is more refine than Pithy (second Jhana)?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote:At this stage the burden of proof on your side.
I will be very grateful to you if you can find Sutta reference to show Piti is a feeling.
Thanks. I already did this. (However, it is only one sutta reference. There could be sutta with a different view).
Yasmiṃ samaye, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ‘pīti­paṭi­saṃ­vedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘pīti­paṭi­saṃ­vedī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati; ‘sukha­paṭi­saṃ­vedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘sukha­paṭi­saṃ­vedī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;... vedanāsu vedanānupassī, bhikkhave, tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhu viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhij­jhā­do­manas­saṃ. Vedanāsu veda­nāññata­rā­haṃ, bhikkhave, evaṃ vadāmi yadidaṃ— assāsa­passā­sā­naṃ sādhukaṃ manasikāraṃ

On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to rapture'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to pleasure';... On that occasion the monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — careful attention to in-&-out breaths — is classed as a feeling among feelings.... MN 118
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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form
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Re: Why Sukaha (third Jhana) is more refine than Pithy (second Jhana)?

Post by form »

Ruud wrote:I recently heard the difference between the two described (in a talk by Dhammaruwan) as follows:

You are walking in the desert, very thirsty. All of a sudden you see an oasis. The joy of seeing the oasis is piti, the pleasure of drinking the water is sukha.

I don't know where the simile comes from but I found it a rather vivid description which also clearly shows a progression from piti towards sukha.
From vmagga
SarathW
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Re: Why Sukaha (third Jhana) is more refine than Pithy (second Jhana)?

Post by SarathW »

DooDoot wrote:
SarathW wrote:At this stage the burden of proof on your side.
I will be very grateful to you if you can find Sutta reference to show Piti is a feeling.
Thanks. I already did this. (However, it is only one sutta reference. There could be sutta with a different view).
Yasmiṃ samaye, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ‘pīti­paṭi­saṃ­vedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘pīti­paṭi­saṃ­vedī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati; ‘sukha­paṭi­saṃ­vedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘sukha­paṭi­saṃ­vedī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;... vedanāsu vedanānupassī, bhikkhave, tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhu viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhij­jhā­do­manas­saṃ. Vedanāsu veda­nāññata­rā­haṃ, bhikkhave, evaṃ vadāmi yadidaṃ— assāsa­passā­sā­naṃ sādhukaṃ manasikāraṃ

On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to rapture'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to pleasure';... On that occasion the monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — careful attention to in-&-out breaths — is classed as a feeling among feelings.... MN 118
Good posting. :clap:
Then what is your answer to my question?
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Re: Why Sukaha (third Jhana) is more refine than Pithy (second Jhana)?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote:Then what is your answer to my question?
I already offered my opinion to your question, where I posted:
...sukha is 'higher' or 'more advanced' than piti because sukha is calmer than piti & is closer to Nibbana. SN 36.11
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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