Nonhumans can & do attain nibbāna.

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dylanj
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Nonhumans can & do attain nibbāna.

Post by dylanj »

I just saw, on this forum, yet another instance of someone claiming "only humans can escape". This view is often advanced with the idea that practice is impossible in the higher realms because of the excess of pleasure & impossible in the lower realms because of the excess of pain.

There's no sutta basis for either view (that nibbāna or practice as a whole is not an option for devas); in fact nibbāna is assured by the end of life for all beings in the 5 highest realms of the rūpaloka (form realm), the suddhavassa (pure abode) realms reached by an anāgāmi (nonreturner). That is more than any human can say.

I think we should not disrespect the devas & become prideful of the fact that it is only in "our" realm where Buddhas can arise, which certainly is true. Devas are devas because they performed meritorious kamma in the past. That meritorious kamma might very well be nonworldly, i.e. Dhamma conduct. In the suttas, when the Buddha declares the rebirth of an attained disciple (stream enterer, once returner, nonreturner), he always declares them to be reborn as a Deva (not that this is a rule, but it seems it is a norm). Have these ariyapuggallā (noble people) fallen to a less fortunate state? Of course not. Devas are higher, & they have become one due to the heightening of their minds.

So let's not misrepresent the Buddha & his Dhamma. Certainly being fearful of the hindrance of attachment to pleasure is wholesome but that is another matter entirely that is just as relevant in the human realm as it is in the deva realms. If you are going to be reborn, if this is not your last life, I hope your remaining lives are in the higher realms, where you will suffer less.
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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Re: Nonhumans can & do attain nibbāna.

Post by DooDoot »

maranadhammomhi wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:15 pmThere's no sutta basis for either view (that nibbāna or practice as a whole is not an option for devas); in fact nibbāna is assured by the end of life for all beings in the 5 highest realms of the rūpaloka (form realm), the suddhavassa (pure abode) realms reached by an anāgāmi (nonreturner). That is more than any human can say.
Since the suttas are mentioned above, is the term 'rūpaloka' found in the suttas? Also, which suttas say rūpaloka & suddhavassa are assured of Nibbana? AN 4.123 appears to say rupa-jhana practitioners or devas can fall into hell. SN 6. 1. 6. it appears to describe suddhavassa that are not anāgāmi.
maranadhammomhi wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:15 pmIn the suttas, when the Buddha declares the rebirth of an attained disciple (stream enterer, once returner, nonreturner), he always declares them to be reborn as a Deva (not that this is a rule, but it seems it is a norm). Have these ariyapuggallā (noble people) fallen to a less fortunate state? Of course not. Devas are higher, & they have become one due to the heightening of their minds.

So let's not misrepresent the Buddha & his Dhamma. Certainly being fearful of the hindrance of attachment to pleasure is wholesome but that is another matter entirely that is just as relevant in the human realm as it is in the deva realms. If you are going to be reborn, if this is not your last life, I hope your remaining lives are in the higher realms, where you will suffer less.
It might be nice & encouraging to hope for realms of more pleasantness & less suffering but how will the stream-entry required to reach this certain realm be attained by attaching to views of self? My point here is I think devas in the suttas, for the most part, are not ariyapuggallā (noble people), which is why devas also require the Buddha to be a teacher.
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Re: Nonhumans can & do attain nibbāna.

Post by dylanj »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:29 pm Since the suttas are mentioned above, is the term 'rūpaloka' found in the suttas? Also, which suttas say rūpaloka & suddhavassa are assured of Nibbana? AN 4.123 appears to say rupa-jhana practitioners or devas can fall into hell. SN 6. 1. 6. it appears to describe suddhavassa that are not anāgāmi.
I have not said that all beings in the rūpaloka are assured of nibbāna. I referred to the 5 highest realms of the rūpaloka which is equivalent to the suddhavassa realms. Suddhavasa in the sutta you linked is the name of an individual Brahma, by my reading.

Yes of course devas can fall into hell. I do not say they are all, collectively, guaranteed liberation.
DooDoot wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:29 pm It might be nice & encouraging to hope for realms of more pleasantness & less suffering but how will the stream-entry required to reach this certain realm be attained by attaching to views of self? My point here is I think devas in the suttas, for the most part, are not ariyapuggallā (noble people), which is why devas also require the Buddha to be a teacher.
It can't be attained by attaching to views of self. Yes the majority of devas are not ariyapuggalā. Yes the devas require a Buddha as a teacher.
Last edited by dylanj on Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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Re: Nonhumans can & do attain nibbāna.

Post by perkele »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:29 pmwhich suttas say rūpaloka & suddhavassa are assured of Nibbana? AN 4.123 appears to say rupa-jhana practitioners or devas can fall into hell.
AN 4.124 talks further about rupa-jhana practitioners who are reborn in the pure abodes (suddhavasa):
AN 4.124 wrote:At the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in conjunction with the devas of the Pure Abodes. This rebirth is not in common with run-of-the-mill people.
As implied by the last sentence, those are assured of nibbana, and can not fall into hell.
DooDoot wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:29 pmSN 6. 1. 6. it appears to describe suddhavassa that are not anāgāmi.
It seems you misread that one. In this sutta there is one suddhavasa brahma mentioned who goes to visit the Buddha together with another brahma (who is not from sudhavasa, I suppose). They find that it is not a proper time to disturb the Buddha, as he is probably in seclusion or eating his meal at the time.
So instead they decide to go visit some other brahmas (no mention of suddhavasa here) who "abide negligently", are infatuated with their own greatness and psychic powers, seeing no need to "go to attend on other recluses and Brahmins", to stir them up and persuade them to visit the Buddha (which those then do at some later time).
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Re: Nonhumans can & do attain nibbāna.

Post by DooDoot »

perkele wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:30 am AN 4.124 talks further about rupa-jhana practitioners who are reborn in the pure abodes (suddhavasa):
AN 4.124 wrote:At the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in conjunction with the devas of the Pure Abodes. This rebirth is not in common with run-of-the-mill people.
As implied by the last sentence, those are assured of nibbana, and can not fall into hell.
It seems you misread that one. The assurance appears to be the result of realising not-self. In this sutta:
There is the case where an individual, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self
:alien:
perkele wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:30 amIt seems you misread that one.
I did say "it apears". I didn't claim to be an expert on these unverifiable materialistic ideas about deva realms in the clouds. Its probably best to have a better translation.
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Nonhumans can & do attain nibbāna.

Post by perkele »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:07 amIt seems you misread that one. The assurance appears to be the result of realising not-self. In this sutta:
Sure, that's what that assurance is the result of. Who said otherwise?
DooDoot wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:07 amI did say "it apears". I didn't claim to be an expert on these unverifiable materialistic ideas about deva realms, despite the sutta saying:
And I just said "It seems you misread that one". I didn't claim that you claimed to be an expert on whatever. I just claimed that it seems that you misread something.
Why so combative/defensive? Did someone put raisins in your müsli or something horrible like that? (Raisins are an abomination.)
DooDoot wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:07 amdespite the sutta saying:
Then Subrahma the individual brahma and an individual brahma of the pure abodes approached the Blessed One, and one individual stood outside the gate.
I don't understand this "despite" interjection. Care to explain?
DooDoot wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:07 am
perkele wrote:In this sutta there is one suddhavasa brahma mentioned who goes to visit the Buddha together with another brahma (who is not from sudhavasa, I suppose). They find that it is not a proper time to disturb the Buddha, as he is probably in seclusion or eating his meal at the time. So instead they decide to go visit some other brahmas (no mention of suddhavasa here) who "abide negligently", are infatuated with their own greatness and psychic powers, seeing no need to "go to attend on other recluses and Brahmins", to stir them up and persuade them to visit the Buddha (which those then do at some later time).
So? Still does not sound like a non-returner to me.
Suddhavasa implies non-returner. Whoever is reborn in suddhavasa is a non-returner.

As quoted earlier from 4.124:
This rebirth is not in common with run-of-the-mill people.
This implies only stream-entry. However, I think the conclusion that those reborn in suddhavasa are all non-returners can be drawn from other suttas, though I don't know which at the moment.

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:07 am:alien:
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Re: Nonhumans can & do attain nibbāna.

Post by DooDoot »

perkele wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:36 amWhy so combative/defensive? Did someone put raisins in your müsli or something horrible like that? (Raisins are an abomination.)
My post merely used the same language you used. ;)
perkele wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:36 amSuddhavasa implies non-returner. Whoever is reborn in suddhavasa is a non-returner.
Alternate translation states:
Now two independent Brahmās, Subrahmā and Suddhavāsa, had come to see the Exalted One...

http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/pts ... yc.pts.htm
I think more evidence is required to support the view that one or both of these is a non-returner.
perkele wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:36 am I think the conclusion that those reborn in suddhavasa are all non-returners can be drawn from other suttas, though I don't know which at the moment.
Despite not knowing, it seems you need to keep searching.
perkele wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:30 amAN 4.124 talks further about rupa-jhana practitioners who are reborn in the pure abodes (suddhavasa):
AN 4.124 wrote:At the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in conjunction with the devas of the Pure Abodes. This rebirth is not in common with run-of-the-mill people.
As implied by the last sentence, those are assured of nibbana, and can not fall into hell.
Its an interesting idea that the realiser of not-self would experience "death" ("marana") & "rebirth" (given "marana" is the 12th condition for suffering). Are there other suttas like this, which literally say this?
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Re: Nonhumans can & do attain nibbāna.

Post by perkele »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:43 amMy post merely used the same language you used. ;)
Okay, fair enough, I guess.
DooDoot wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:43 amI think more evidence is required to support the view that one or both of these is a non-returner.
Okay. Might well be that suddhavasa is only a name here. I still don't see how you come to your original statement about that sutta:
DooDoot wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:29 pmSN 6. 1. 6. it appears to describe suddhavassa that are not anāgāmi.
The sutta does not state that the brahma called suddhavasa here is not an anāgāmi. At worst, we can't draw a definite conclusion either way. However, given his behaviour and faith in the Buddha, it seems likely to me that he is in fact an anāgāmi (i.e. actually a suddhavasa brahma - and quite likely, the other one who is with him, too, I guess; but of course, I don't know).
DooDoot wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:43 amDespite not knowing, it seems you need to keep searching.
If I knew then I would not need to keep searching.
I still don't know what your first "despite" meant. But it seems you were in the process of editing your post. So I guess it's not important.
DooDoot wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:43 amIts an interesting idea that the realiser of not-self would experience "death" ("marana") & "rebirth" (given "marana" is the 12th condition for suffering). Are there other suttas like this, which literally say this?
I think there are dozens of suttas where it is told that people (including stream-entrants) have died and been reborn somewhere. In the case of stream-entrants they are always said to have been reborn in some heaven, in all those examples, I think.
I don't know which Pali words are used, though.
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Re: Nonhumans can & do attain nibbāna.

Post by DooDoot »

perkele wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:04 am I think there are dozens of suttas where it is told that people (including stream-entrants) have died and been reborn somewhere. In the case of stream-entrants they are always said to have been reborn in some heaven, in all those examples, I think. I don't know which Pali words are used, though.
The Pali words used in AN 4.124 are "So kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā", which are usually found in kamma suttas, about the "death" of (unenlightened) "beings" ("satta"). "Marana" is the 12th condition for suffering in dependent origination.

MN 143 about Anathapindikovada, who was supposedly a stream-enterer, says: kālamakāsi tusitaṃ kāyaṃ upapajji

MN 140 about Pukkusati, who was a non-returner, says: pukkusāti ... kālaṅkato

AN 6.16 about stream-enterer Nakulamata:
Mā kho tvaṃ, gahapati, sāpekkho kālamakāsi. Dukkhā, gahapati, sāpekkhassa kālakiriyā; garahitā ca bhagavatā sāpekkhassa kālakiriyā.

Then Nakula's mother said to him: "Don't be worried as you die, householder. Death is painful for one who is worried. The Blessed One has criticized being worried at the time of death.
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Re: Nonhumans can & do attain nibbāna.

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"It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a hell named 'Six Spheres of Contact.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; displeasing, never pleasing; disagreeable, never agreeable. Whatever sound one hears there with the ear... Whatever aroma one smells there with the nose... Whatever flavor one tastes there with the tongue... Whatever tactile sensation one touches there with the body... Whatever idea one cognizes there with the intellect is undesirable, never desirable; displeasing, never pleasing; disagreeable, never agreeable.

"It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a heaven named 'Six Spheres of Contact.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is desirable, never undesirable; pleasing, never displeasing; agreeable, never disagreeable. Whatever sound one hears there with the ear... Whatever aroma one smells there with the nose... Whatever flavor one tastes there with the tongue... Whatever tactile sensation one touches there with the body... Whatever idea one cognizes there with the intellect is desirable, never undesirable; pleasing, never displeasing; agreeable, never disagreeable.

"It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life."

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Re: Nonhumans can & do attain nibbāna.

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Itivuttaka: The Buddha’s Sayings

The Section of the Threes

83. The Five Prognostic Signs

This was said by the Lord…

“Bhikkhus, when a deva is due to pass away from a company of devas, five prognostic signs appear: his flower-garlands wither, his clothes become soiled, sweat is released from his armpits, his bodily radiance fades, and the deva takes no delight in his heavenly throne. The devas, observing the prognostic signs that this deva is due to pass away, encourage him in three things with the words: ‘Go from here, friend, to a good bourn. Having gone to a good bourn, gain that which is good to gain. Having gained that which is good to gain, become firmly established in it.’”

When this was said, a certain bhikkhu asked the Lord: “Venerable sir, what is reckoned by the devas to be a good bourn? What is reckoned by the devas to be a gain that is good to gain? What is reckoned by the devas to be firmly established?”

“It is human existence, bhikkhus, that is reckoned by the devas to be a good bourn. When a human being acquires faith in the Dhamma-and-Discipline taught by the Tathāgata, this is reckoned by the devas to be a gain that is good to gain. When faith is steadfast in him, firmly rooted, established and strong, not to be destroyedby any recluse or brahmin or deva or Māra or Brahmā or by anyone else in the world, this is reckoned by the devas to be firmly established.”

When a deva whose life is exhausted
Passes away from a deva-company,
The devas encourage him
In three ways with the words:

“Go, friend, to a good bourn,
To the fellowship of humans.
On becoming human acquire faith
Unsurpassed in the true Dhamma.

That faith made steadfast,
Become rooted and standing firm,
Will be unshakeable for life
In the true Dhamma well proclaimed.

Having abandoned misconduct by body,
Misconduct by speech as well,
Misconduct by mind, and whatever else
Is reckoned as a fault,

Having done much that is good
Both by body and by speech,
And done good with a mind
That is boundless and free from clinging,

With that merit as a basis
Made abundant by generosity,
You should establish other people
In the true Dhamma and the holy life.”

When the devas know that a deva
Is about to pass from their midst,
Out of compassion they encourage him:
“Return here, deva, again and again.”

https://suttacentral.net/en/iti83


:anjali:
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Re: Nonhumans can & do attain nibbāna.

Post by perkele »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:32 amThe Pali words used in AN 4.124 are "So kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā", which are usually found in kamma suttas, about the "death" of (unenlightened) "beings" ("satta"). "Marana" is the 12th condition for suffering in dependent origination.

MN 143 about Anathapindikovada, who was supposedly a stream-enterer, says: kālamakāsi tusitaṃ kāyaṃ upapajji

MN 140 about Pukkusati, who was a non-returner, says: pukkusāti ... kālaṅkato

AN 6.16 about stream-enterer Nakulamata:
Mā kho tvaṃ, gahapati, sāpekkho kālamakāsi. Dukkhā, gahapati, sāpekkhassa kālakiriyā; garahitā ca bhagavatā sāpekkhassa kālakiriyā.

Then Nakula's mother said to him: "Don't be worried as you die, householder. Death is painful for one who is worried. The Blessed One has criticized being worried at the time of death.
Okay, that seems interesting.
So you think there might be a systematic distinction being made in the suttas between two different sorts of "dying" here, by using the words maraṇā and kālaṅkiriya (? - not sure about the form)?
That had not occurred to me.
That would be interesting, and could make sense in light of some Dhammapada verses like "The heedful do not die. The heedless are as if already dead." (paraphrased from memory, don't know which verses), that this should implicate that sotapannas and above do not experience death in the same devastating way as ordinary persons, already having come to terms with the knowledge that all fabricated things are impermanent, and not clinging to identity-views.
However, I found while looking for a counterexample, that in the sutta where the news of queen Mallika's death is brought to king Pasenadi, the word used there is again kālaṅkata (or some form like that - don't have the source before me now).
And queen Mallika is said to have been reborn in hell - only for a couple of days, before being reborn in Tusita heaven thereafter, and according to sutta lore she was not a sotapanna.

So it seems that kālaṅka...whatever can apply to both ariya and puthujjana. But maybe maraṇā only applies to puthujjana. That would be interesting.
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Re: Nonhumans can & do attain nibbāna.

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perkele wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:55 pmSo you think there might be a systematic distinction being made in the suttas between two different sorts of "dying" here, by using the words maraṇā and kālaṅkiriya (? - not sure about the form)? That had not occurred to me. That would be interesting, and could make sense in light of some Dhammapada verses like "The heedful do not die. The heedless are as if already dead." (paraphrased from memory, don't know which verses), that this should implicate that sotapannas and above do not experience death in the same devastating way as ordinary persons, already having come to terms with the knowledge that all fabricated things are impermanent, and not clinging to identity-views.
Just a theory, not yet confirmed. For your consideration. A warm-hearted friend... informs one of what is unknown to oneself (DN 31).
However, I found while looking for a counterexample, that in the sutta where the news of queen Mallika's death is brought to king Pasenadi, the word used there is again kālaṅkata (or some form like that - don't have the source before me now). And queen Mallika is said to have been reborn in hell - only for a couple of days, before being reborn in Tusita heaven thereafter, and according to sutta lore she was not a sotapanna.
MN 87 is the same, which uses 'kalankata' & 'kalamakasi' for the "ending of time" of ordinary people. Note: MN 87 is not about 'kamma & rebirth' but merely about the grief arising from separation from the loved.
Once in this same Savatthi there was a woman whose father died... whose brother died... whose sister died... whose son died... whose daughter died... whose husband died. Owing to his death she went mad, out of her mind, and wandering from street to street, crossroads to crossroads, would say, 'Have you seen my husband? Have you seen my husband?' It's through this sequence of events that it may be understood how sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
perkele wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:55 pmSo it seems that kālaṅka...whatever can apply to both ariya and puthujjana. But maybe maraṇā only applies to puthujjana. That would be interesting.
I was correlating 'marana' with 'rebirth' resulting from the performance of ordinary good & bad kamma (performed with attachment & self-views via dependent origination) rather than explicitly with the ending of life (kālaṅka) of ordinary people. I think the most striking example is those suttas about whether or not the Tathagata exists after death. The word for death here is "marana", which shows a Buddha does not "marana", similar to the Dhammapada verse you quoted, which uses 'mata', 'maccu' & 'mīyanti'.
Bhikkhu, ‘I am’ is a conceiving; ‘I am this’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall not be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be possessed of form’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be formless’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be non-percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient’ is a conceiving. Conceiving is a disease, conceiving is a tumour, conceiving is a dart. By overcoming all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace. And the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die (mīyati); he is not shaken and does not yearn. For there is nothing present in him by which he might be born. Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he yearn?

MN 140
:focus:
Lucas Oliveira wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:47 am Itivuttaka: The Buddha’s Sayings

This was said by the Lord…

It is human existence, bhikkhus, that is reckoned by the devas to be a good bourn. When a human being acquires faith in the Dhamma-and-Discipline taught by the Tathāgata, this is reckoned by the devas to be a gain that is good to gain. When faith is steadfast in him, firmly rooted, established and strong, not to be destroyedby any recluse or brahmin or deva or Māra or Brahmā or by anyone else in the world, this is reckoned by the devas to be firmly established.

Go, friend, to a good bourn,
To the fellowship of humans.
On becoming human acquire faith
Unsurpassed in the true Dhamma.
:goodpost:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Nonhumans can & do attain nibbāna.

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Majjhima Nikaya 37

Culatanhasankhaya Sutta

The Shorter Discourse on the Destruction of Craving

Ven. Maha Mogallana hears the Buddha give a brief explanation to Sakka, the lord of the devas, about how a bhikkhu is liberated through the destruction of desire. Wondering if Sakka had understood a message, he visited him in the paradise of Thirty-Three.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn37


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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Nonhumans can & do attain nibbāna.

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Digha Nikaya 21

Sakkapanha Sutta

The Questions of Sakka

Sakka, the deva-king, asks the Buddha about the sources of conflict, and about the path of practice that can bring it to an end. This discourse ends with a humorous account about Sakka's frustration in trying to learn the Dhamma from other contemplatives. It's hard to find a teacher when you're a king.

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...
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Then Sakka, the deva-king, touched the earth with his hand and said three times, "Homage to the Worthy One, the Blessed One, the Rightly Self-awakened One! Homage to the Worthy One, the Blessed One, the Rightly Self-awakened One! Homage to the Worthy One, the Blessed One, the Rightly Self-awakened One!"

While this explanation was being given, there arose to Sakka the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye — "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation" — as it also did to [his following of] 80,000 other devas.

Such were the questions that the Blessed One answered at Sakka's bidding. And so this discourse is called "Sakka's Questions."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

https://suttacentral.net/en/dn21


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