Sakkaya Ditthi is not self-view!!

[User1249x]

sakkāyo

What I am saying is "self identification or self-view" is the wrong translation for the pali word "Sakkayo"

In that case this is posted in wrong section, and should be in Pali-Sub and you are misrepresenting the Dhamma in your categorical exposition. As i understand of course could be wrong, sorry if is so.

[SarathW]

Indeed , this is a sad sad news

These are just categories and aid for learning.
What matters is whether you understand the idea behind the teaching.

[sentinel]

Indeed , this is a sad sad news

These are just categories and aid for learning.
What matters is whether you understand the idea behind the teaching.

If you are right , that just means we are all misguided and all along wrong . You think you uprooted the sakkaya view yet you are not .

[chownah]

From nyanatiloka's dictionary:

Sakkāya-ditthi: 'personality-belief', is the first of the 10 mental chains samyojana It is entirely abandoned only on reaching the path of Stream-winning sotāpatti-magga ariya-puggala There are 20 kinds of personality-belief, which are obtained by applying 4 types of that belief to each of the 5 groups of existence khandha : 1-5 the belief to be identical with materiality, feeling, perception, mental constructions or consciousness; 6-10 to be contained in them; 11-15 to be independent of them; 16-20 to be the owner of them M. 44; S. XXII. 1. See prec., ditthi upādāna 4.

chownah

[theY]

They are just the synonym.

• Sakkāya is an object of anu-diṭṭhi. So, sakkāyadiṭṭhisutta and
  attānudiṭṭhisutta have the same content. This is the english translated version of those suttas,
  attānudiṭṭhisutta is next of sakkāyadiṭṭhisutta.

Your 3 suttas, which near by each other, describing each other like this:
Diṭṭhi means misunderstanding of causes and effects, clinging-aggregates which is anattā as attā.
Anu is prefix which means often.
Micchā is prefix which means mistake.
Sakkāya is a name of clinging-aggregates follow to many sutta, such as Sutta. Ma. Mū. Cūḷavedallasuttaṃ.

These clinging-aggregates are the Sakkāya described by the Blessed One.

So, sakkāya-micchā-anu-diṭṭhi means often mis-understanding, micchā-anu-diṭṭhi (verb act as noun), of sakkāya (object), causes and effects, clinging-aggregates anattā as attā.

Note1: Sakkāya is not only internal, because there are internal clinging-aggregates, internal sakkāya, and external clinging-aggregates, external sakkāya, which are contemplating by the practitioner in Cūlavedallasutta and Sutta. Ma. Mū. Sacca-pabba of Satipaṭṭhānasuttaṃ (<< this link is a good translation of this sutta).

they meditate by observing an aspect of the principle inside and outside.

The inside and outside aspect of the principle in this term is sakkāya (clinging aggregates), sakkāyasamudayo, sakkāyanirodho, and sakkāyanirodhagāminīpaṭipadā.

Note2: Santo kāyo sakkāyo. Kāya, clinging-aggregates, is sacca, santa, vijjānana, the reality, truth, possible to arise in causes and effects cycle. So, buddha said sakkāya is sacca and clinging-aggregates in Sutta. Saṃ. Kha. Sakkāyasutta[trans].
"Sakko kāyo sakkāyo" and "para kāyo sakkāyo" is allowed in Ma. Mū. Sacca-pabba of Satipaṭṭhānasuttaṃ as an internal anupassī, but it is not the primary meaning when compare to Sutta. Saṃ. Kha. Sakkāyasutta[trans], which sakkāya meaning is defined by buddha directly. And "para kāyo sakkāyo" never found in any where else except in Satipaṭṭhānasuttaṃ.
So, if you use "sakko kāyo sakkāyo" in Sakkāyasutta, Sakkāyasutta, which has only sakko, will conflict with Sacca-pabba of Satipaṭṭhānasuttaṃ, which has both sakko and paro.
But by the "Santo kāyo sakkāyo", there is no conflict like that between the co-context sutta, such as micchādiṭṭhisutta, sakkāyadiṭṭhisutta, and attānudiṭṭhisutta, which using the same context and near by each other. Also, there is no conflict between those sutta and the faraway suttas such as Sutta. Saṃ. Kha. Sakkāyasutta, Sutta. Ma. Mū. Sacca-pabba of Satipaṭṭhānasuttaṃ, and Sutta. Ma. Mū. Cūḷavedallasuttaṃ.

Note3: Your 3 suttas, which near by each other, describing each other. Mostly words of them can use in the other sutta, such as anicca, dukkha, anatta, of these 3 sutta contexts all refering to saṅkhata (clinging-aggregates), which means arisen by causes. So, it can use to explain each other like appeared in Vinaya. Mahā (1) Anattalakkhaṇasutta:

1. ‘Now what do you think, O bhikkhus, is the body permanent or perishable?’

‘It is perishable (anicca), Lord.’
‘And that which is perishable, does that cause pain or joy?’
‘It causes pain (dukkha), Lord.’
‘And that which is perishable, painful, subject to change, is it
possible to regard that in this way. ‘This is mine, this am I, this is
my self (atta)?’ ‘That is impossible, Lord.’

[SarathW]

So, sakkāyadiṭṭhisutta andattānudiṭṭhisutta have the same content.

No.
If you read Pali sutta they all three are differernt.
ie:Mitchhaditthi, Sakkhayaditthi, Attanuditthi.

[SarathW]

sakkāya-Anu-Diṭṭhi

I have not seen this term before.
Where you get that from?

[DooDoot]

So, micchādiṭṭhisutta, sakkāyadiṭṭhisutta andattānudiṭṭhisutta have the same content. This is the english translated version of those suttas,attānudiṭṭhisutta is next of sakkāyadiṭṭhisutta.[/list]

Yes. Each of these sutta say each ditthi arises from grasping the five aggregates.

Sakkāya is a name of clinging-aggregates follow to many sutta, such as Sutta. Ma. Mū. Cūḷavedallasuttaṃ.

These clinging-aggregates are the Sakkāya described by the Blessed One.

Yes. This is plainly obvious.

If you read Pali sutta they all three are different.
ie:Mitchhaditthi, Sakkhayaditthi, Attanuditthi.

No. They are different in Chapter 35 of the Samyutta Nikaya but not necessarily different in the entire Nikayas.

[SarathW]

No. They are different in Chapter 35 of the Samyutta Nikaya but not necessarily different in the entire Nikayas.

I think SN is the only place this clearly explain.

[SarathW]

These clinging-aggregates are the Sakkāya described by the Blessed One.

I think clinging-aggregate is the all three together.
Ie: Taking five aggregate as Nicca, Sukha, and Atta.

[theY]

So, sakkāyadiṭṭhisutta andattānudiṭṭhisutta have the same content.

No.
If you read Pali sutta they all three are differernt.
ie:Mitchhaditthi, Sakkhayaditthi, Attanuditthi.

Your 3 suttas, which near by each other, describing each other. Mostly words of them can use in the other sutta, such as anicca, dukkha, anatta, of these 3 sutta contexts all refering to saṅkhata (clinging-aggregates), which means arisen by causes. So, it can use to explain each other like appeared in Vinaya. Mahā (1) Anattalakkhaṇasutta:

‘Now what do you think, O bhikkhus, is the body permanent or perishable?’
‘It is perishable (anicca), Lord.’
‘And that which is perishable, does that cause pain or joy?’
‘It causes pain (dukkha), Lord.’
‘And that which is perishable, painful, subject to change, is it possible to regard that in this way. ‘This is mine, this am I, this is my self (atta)?’ ‘That is impossible, Lord.’

[theY]

sakkāya-Anu-Diṭṭhi

I have not seen this term before.
Where you get that from?

You never have to see "I often(1) mis(2)-understand(3) of you-ahaṃ tuvaṃ micchā(2) anu(1)-passāmi(3)" sentence. But is it right, if I tell you A, B, and C have the same meaning:

A: I often understand of you as permanent person.

B: I misunderstand of you as permanent person.

C: I understand of you as my dear forever (misunderstanding sakkāya as attā).

[DooDoot]

Your 3 suttas, which near by each other, describing each other. Mostly words of them can use in the other sutta, such as anicca, dukkha, anatta, of these 3 sutta contexts all refering to saṅkhata (clinging-aggregates), which means arisen by causes.

This may be true but you have not explained why these suttas were taught as they were. These suttas teach:

1. Seeing impermanence is the method for abandoning wrong view (micchādiṭṭhi).

2. Seeing unsatisfactoriness is the method for abandoning identity view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi).

3. Seeing not-self is the method for abandoning self view (attānudiṭṭhi).

Why is this teaching given in this manner?

[SarathW]

This may be true but you have not explained why these suttas were taught as they were. The suttas teach:

Thanks.
That is what I like to explore in this post.

[DooDoot]

Note1: Sakkāya is not only internal, because there are internal clinging-aggregates, internal sakkāya, and external clinging-aggregates, external sakkāya, which are contemplating by the practitioner in Cūlavedallasutta and Sutta. Ma. Mū. Sacca-pabba of Satipaṭṭhānasuttaṃ (<< this link is a good translation of this sutta).

they meditate by observing an aspect of the principle inside and outside.

This is difficult to understand. Above, you seem to say kayanupassana in satipatthana means observing all of the five aggregates rather than only observing the physical groups, such as breathing kaya & rupa kaya (such as when MN 118 says the breathing is a 'kaya' among other kaya).

Sakkaya in the suttas refers to the five clung-to-aggregates. But you seem to be saying sakkaya is an object of kayanupassana in satipatthana. This sounds incorrect because the five clung-to-aggregates are included in dhammanupassana.

Katame ca, bhikkhave, saṅkhittena pañcu­pādā­nak­khan­dhā dukkhā? Seyyathidaṃ— rūpupā­dā­nak­khan­dho, vedanupā­dā­nak­khan­dho, saññu­pādā­nak­khan­dho, saṅ­khā­ru­pādā­nak­khan­dho, viñ­ñāṇupā­dā­nak­khan­dho. Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, saṅkhittena pañcu­pādā­nak­khan­dhā dukkhā. Idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, dukkhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ.

And what, monastics, is ‘in brief, the five grasping aggregates are suffering’? These are the grasping aggregates of form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness. This is called ‘in brief, the five grasping aggregates are suffering’.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn10

Also, the translation of MN 10 is not good. It is terrible. Above, the translation says the aggregates are "grasping" rather than are "grasped" & translates 'sankhara' as 'choices'. Below, the word 'upādā­na' has not been translated into English:

4.2. Dhammā­nu­passa­nā­khan­dha­pabba

Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati pañcasu upādā­nak­khan­dhesu. Kathañca pana, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati pañcasu upādā­nak­khan­dhesu

Furthermore, a monastic meditates by observing an aspect of the principles with respect to the five aggregates. And how, monastics, does a monastic meditate by observing an aspect of the principles with respect to the five aggregates?

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn10

grasped

ฉกฉวย
grasp, snatch, take, seize, wrest, grab
กำ
grip, clutch, grasp, hold, clench, clasp
ฉวย
snatch, seize, grab, snap, grasp, catch

grasping

โลภ
grabbing, greedy, grasping, voracious, gluttonous, avaricious
คว้าไม่ว่าอะไร
grasping
หน้าเลือด
grasping, greedy, rapacious, selfish
หน้าโลหิต
grasping, greedy, rapacious, selfish