Which view on DO resonates with you the most?
Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?
simultaneous, non-linear
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?
Could you elaborate on "simultaneous"? And how does this work with the conditionality mode of "When this arises, that arises", which involves a sequence over time?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?
It's actually "when this arises, this arises". "imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati", not "imassuppādā etaṁ uppajjati"
there's nothing sequential here, in fact it's the opposite. "when", not "after". where there is one link there is the other.
the only reason they go in order is to indicate the closeness of the factors, i.e. it's ignorance that is most directly related to saṅkhārā,
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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- Posts: 10184
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
- Location: Andromeda looks nice
Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?
But there are two modes of conditionality ( 1 and 2 below ). I think you're talking about mode No. 1 here. Mode No. 2 involves a sequence of events or states, ie when A arises ( then ) B arises.dylanj wrote: ↑Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:34 amIt's actually "when this arises, this arises". "imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati", not "imassuppādā etaṁ uppajjati"
there's nothing sequential here, in fact it's the opposite. "when", not "after". where there is one link there is the other.
the only reason they go in order is to indicate the closeness of the factors, i.e. it's ignorance that is most directly related to saṅkhārā,
1. "'When this is, that is.
2. "'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
1. "'When this isn't, that isn't.
2. "'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?
no i quoted number 2.Dinsdale wrote: ↑Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:40 amBut there are two modes of conditionality ( 1 and 2 below ). I think you're talking about No. 1 here. No. 2 involves a sequence of events or states.dylanj wrote: ↑Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:34 amIt's actually "when this arises, this arises". "imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati", not "imassuppādā etaṁ uppajjati"
there's nothing sequential here, in fact it's the opposite. "when", not "after". where there is one link there is the other.
the only reason they go in order is to indicate the closeness of the factors, i.e. it's ignorance that is most directly related to saṅkhārā,
1. "'When this is, that is.
2. "'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
1. "'When this isn't, that isn't.
2. "'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
imasmiṁ sati idaṁ hoti
imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati
imasmiṁ asati idaṁ na hoti
imassa nirodhā idaṁ nirujjhati
in each line it is "idaṁ" not "etaṁ" so it's this/this not this/that
& still there is no sequence beyond choosing to interpret it that way.
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?
why would it take time for something to cease when its requisite condition ceases?
if "when this is, this is" & "when this isn't, this isn't" is true of the two links then the moment one is, the other is, & the moment one isn't, the other isn't
if "when this is, this is" & "when this isn't, this isn't" is true of the two links then the moment one is, the other is, & the moment one isn't, the other isn't
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?
the dhamma is akāliko/timeless in the most literal sense
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?
I disagree, and actually you seem to have quoted both 1 and 2.dylanj wrote: ↑Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:46 amno i quoted number 2.Dinsdale wrote: ↑Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:40 amBut there are two modes of conditionality ( 1 and 2 below ). I think you're talking about No. 1 here. No. 2 involves a sequence of events or states.dylanj wrote: ↑Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:34 am
It's actually "when this arises, this arises". "imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati", not "imassuppādā etaṁ uppajjati"
there's nothing sequential here, in fact it's the opposite. "when", not "after". where there is one link there is the other.
the only reason they go in order is to indicate the closeness of the factors, i.e. it's ignorance that is most directly related to saṅkhārā,
1. "'When this is, that is.
2. "'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
1. "'When this isn't, that isn't.
2. "'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
imasmiṁ sati idaṁ hoti
imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati
imasmiṁ asati idaṁ na hoti
imassa nirodhā idaṁ nirujjhati
in each line it is "idaṁ" not "etaṁ" so it's this/this not this/that
& still there is no sequence beyond choosing to interpret it that way.
Look at these definitions:
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/hoti
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/uppajjati
Can you see the difference?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?
you are misunderstanding me. i meant initially when i made the comparison & you replied saying "I think you're talking about no1 here" I had in fact quoted what you called no 2. then i quoted the whole thing.Dinsdale wrote: ↑Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:53 amI disagree, and actually you seem to have quoted both 1 and 2.dylanj wrote: ↑Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:46 amno i quoted number 2.Dinsdale wrote: ↑Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:40 am
But there are two modes of conditionality ( 1 and 2 below ). I think you're talking about No. 1 here. No. 2 involves a sequence of events or states.
1. "'When this is, that is.
2. "'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
1. "'When this isn't, that isn't.
2. "'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
imasmiṁ sati idaṁ hoti
imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati
imasmiṁ asati idaṁ na hoti
imassa nirodhā idaṁ nirujjhati
in each line it is "idaṁ" not "etaṁ" so it's this/this not this/that
& still there is no sequence beyond choosing to interpret it that way.
Look at these definitions:
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/hoti
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/uppajjati
Can you see the difference?
yes i know the difference. i have the whole quartet memorized in pali & english
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?
You are still missing the distinction between the two modes of conditionality.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?
So can you explain what you think the difference actually is between these two modes of conditionality?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?
anyway the problem is that interpreting it sequentially explicitly contradicts line 3 & 4 as it would be equivalent to saying that one link can & does exist while the other does not, or that it can & does not exist while the other does.Dinsdale wrote: ↑Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:53 amI disagree, and actually you seem to have quoted both 1 and 2.dylanj wrote: ↑Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:46 amno i quoted number 2.Dinsdale wrote: ↑Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:40 am
But there are two modes of conditionality ( 1 and 2 below ). I think you're talking about No. 1 here. No. 2 involves a sequence of events or states.
1. "'When this is, that is.
2. "'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
1. "'When this isn't, that isn't.
2. "'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
imasmiṁ sati idaṁ hoti
imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati
imasmiṁ asati idaṁ na hoti
imassa nirodhā idaṁ nirujjhati
in each line it is "idaṁ" not "etaṁ" so it's this/this not this/that
& still there is no sequence beyond choosing to interpret it that way.
Look at these definitions:
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/hoti
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/uppajjati
Can you see the difference?
if you think that saṅkhārā arises after ignorance & not simultaneously that means there is a moment where there is ignorance but no saṅkhārā. & if you think saṅkhārā ceases after ignorance ceases that means there is a moment where there is no ignorance but there is saṅkhārā
so sequential interpretation is precluded & specifically denied. that's why the buddha said all 4 lines & not just 1 & 3
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?
it's one mode. the 4 lines are collectively referred to as idappaccayatā, "specific conditionality".
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?
btw a more literal translation would be
This existing, this exists;
this arising, this arises;
this not existing, this does not exist;
this ceasing, this ceases’.
This existing, this exists;
this arising, this arises;
this not existing, this does not exist;
this ceasing, this ceases’.
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in
Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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- Posts: 10184
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
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Re: Which view on DO resonates with you the most?
The Buddha said all 4 lines because there are two ( different ) modes of conditionality in DO.dylanj wrote: ↑Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:57 am anyway the problem is that interpreting it sequentially explicitly contradicts line 3 & 4 as it would be equivalent to saying that one link can & does exist while the other does not, or that it can & does not exist while the other does.
if you think that saṅkhārā arises after ignorance & not simultaneously that means there is a moment where there is ignorance but no saṅkhārā. & if you think saṅkhārā ceases after ignorance ceases that means there is a moment where there is no ignorance but there is saṅkhārā
so sequential interpretation is precluded & specifically denied. that's why the buddha said all 4 lines & not just 1 & 3
Tanha arising in dependence upon vedana is an example of No. 2.
Buddha save me from new-agers!