Sotapanna and five precepts

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
maniture_85
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Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by maniture_85 »

Ontheway wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:09 pm
asahi wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:25 pm
thepea wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:23 pm I also fish and eat fish and must provess(kill) fish and I’m a sotapanna. So it’s proof that a sotapanna can kill and I know I’m a sotapanna, so in my case I know exactly who I am.
Sotapanna is just a labeling . What does you awakened to , that is the question ! Prove that if you can .
I think he will just prove it by using his own speech. :shrug:

He discarded Buddha's advice, precepts, Suttas, everything... Yet he claimed to be Sotapanna, one stage of the sainthoods proclaimed by the Buddha, which is only attainable by following the teachings of the Buddha.

For him, this is just a "game" for gaining recognition.
But still remember, be compassionate to him. I think it is very important in these situations.
thepea
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Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by thepea »

asahi wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:25 pm
thepea wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:23 pm I also fish and eat fish and must provess(kill) fish and I’m a sotapanna. So it’s proof that a sotapanna can kill and I know I’m a sotapanna, so in my case I know exactly who I am.
Sotapanna is just a labeling . What does you awakened to , that is the question ! Prove that if you can .
I have awakened to the life within the framework of this body. Activated annicca. I obviously cannot prove this to you, but I am with wisdom.
thepea
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Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by thepea »

Ontheway wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:09 pm
asahi wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:25 pm
thepea wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:23 pm I also fish and eat fish and must provess(kill) fish and I’m a sotapanna. So it’s proof that a sotapanna can kill and I know I’m a sotapanna, so in my case I know exactly who I am.
Sotapanna is just a labeling . What does you awakened to , that is the question ! Prove that if you can .
I think he will just prove it by using his own speech. :shrug:

He discarded Buddha's advice, precepts, Suttas, everything... Yet he claimed to be Sotapanna, one stage of the sainthoods proclaimed by the Buddha, which is only attainable by following the teachings of the Buddha.

For him, this is just a "game" for gaining recognition.
Where have I said I discard the buddhas teachings?
You are quite judgemental if other who you know little about.
I am discerning a line between laylife and entering the field of panna.
I in no way have the samadhi I have on retreats while operating as a layman, and this is not solely because I go to the river to fish for food. That’s part but not all.
The day to day responsibility of layfolk require focusing on the outer world and being productive to your fellow man, woman, and environment. As a layman with family I cannot take robes and practice 24/7 as monastic. I’ve also done long retreats and find that mentally I struggle with such long periods. Perhaps I’m just not ready for these, or what comes up is what I need to work on. Patience etc...
Regardless I’m not drawn to monasticism currently and feel I e done some excellent work up to this point. If I suddenly feel the urge to leave my wife and kids and become a monk I’ll do this. And if I do I will observe the precepts as I do while on retreat.
You seem overtly religious and place this Buddha on a pedestal where I see Buddha deep within always with me.
So you can sit in judgement and shrug your shoulders in confusion and misunderstanding of me, this only affects you on your path.
Be kind to yourself sir/mam.
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Pondera
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Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by Pondera »

auto wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:39 pm
Pondera wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:06 am But Sariputta ended the effluents while in Nirodha Samapatti. That is why is asked what happens to a gainer of that state who “neglects” to end the effluents there.

And what is special about Nirodha Samapatti that ending the effluents there is considered the highest escape with no sequel?
you are saying this because you think one can do insight during absorption. I don't get it how you not the very least see a controversial point, but instead going with your bias.
MN 111 - Sariputta enters Nirodha Samapatti, puts an end to the effluents, then emerges from the attainment.

What were you saying again?
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
auto
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Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by auto »

Pondera wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:34 am
auto wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:39 pm
Pondera wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:06 am But Sariputta ended the effluents while in Nirodha Samapatti. That is why is asked what happens to a gainer of that state who “neglects” to end the effluents there.

And what is special about Nirodha Samapatti that ending the effluents there is considered the highest escape with no sequel?
you are saying this because you think one can do insight during absorption. I don't get it how you not the very least see a controversial point, but instead going with your bias.
MN 111 - Sariputta enters Nirodha Samapatti, puts an end to the effluents, then emerges from the attainment.

What were you saying again?
jhāna ending cycle, something what ordinary person won't live to see. A state, where mental concomitants accompany the support(ārammaṇa) for the continuation of consciousness(somanassa, domanassa, upekha). The insight meditation is concentration on the three characteristics of those mental concomitants so that the path fruit would be experienced, fruit-citta taking the nibbana as its object.
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Pondera
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Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by Pondera »

auto wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:58 pm
Pondera wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:34 am
auto wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:39 pm
you are saying this because you think one can do insight during absorption. I don't get it how you not the very least see a controversial point, but instead going with your bias.
MN 111 - Sariputta enters Nirodha Samapatti, puts an end to the effluents, then emerges from the attainment.

What were you saying again?
jhāna ending cycle, something what ordinary person won't live to see. A state, where mental concomitants accompany the support(ārammaṇa) for the continuation of consciousness(somanassa, domanassa, upekha). The insight meditation is concentration on the three characteristics of those mental concomitants so that the path fruit would be experienced, fruit-citta taking the nibbana as its object.
Why didn’t you say so in the first place? :shrug:
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
auto
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Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by auto »

Pondera wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:32 am Why didn’t you say so in the first place? :shrug:
Because i didn't. You are trolling me noob.
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Pondera
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Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by Pondera »

auto wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:03 pm
Pondera wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:32 am Why didn’t you say so in the first place? :shrug:
Because i didn't. You are trolling me noob.
Am not. Genuinely interested in your opinions. They all seem so based on experience.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
auto
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Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by auto »

Pondera wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:12 am
auto wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:03 pm
Pondera wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:32 am Why didn’t you say so in the first place? :shrug:
Because i didn't. You are trolling me noob.
Am not. Genuinely interested in your opinions. They all seem so based on experience.
you still sound like being on a high ground with your grasp.

I were just remembering you arguing in the past that one can do insight while absorbed..it can be so when looking at the description.
But the part: "when he saw with discernment.." is contact with emptiness.
And the next part" he emerged mindfully.." is what happens after the contact happens, one starts emerge.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN111.html wrote:Sāriputta entered & remained in the cessation of perception & feeling. And when he saw with discernment, his effluents were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: ‘So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.’
..
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Pondera
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Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by Pondera »

auto wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:08 pm
Pondera wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:12 am
auto wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:03 pm
Because i didn't. You are trolling me noob.
Am not. Genuinely interested in your opinions. They all seem so based on experience.
you still sound like being on a high ground with your grasp.

I were just remembering you arguing in the past that one can do insight while absorbed..it can be so when looking at the description.
But the part: "when he saw with discernment.." is contact with emptiness.
And the next part" he emerged mindfully.." is what happens after the contact happens, one starts emerge.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN111.html wrote:Sāriputta entered & remained in the cessation of perception & feeling. And when he saw with discernment, his effluents were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: ‘So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.’
..
I don’t think Nirodha Samapatti is “emptiness” and I don’t know why you would say that.

I also don’t think that your interpretation of the sutta passage necessarily follows from what’s written.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
auto
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Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by auto »

Pondera wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:10 am I don’t think Nirodha Samapatti is “emptiness” and I don’t know why you would say that.

I also don’t think that your interpretation of the sutta passage necessarily follows from what’s written.
Thanissaro footnote of that Sutta, then proceed reading from mn44 about cessation of perception and feeling. And its not emptiness, it is contact with emptiness on emerging.
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Pondera
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Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by Pondera »

auto wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:01 am
Pondera wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:10 am I don’t think Nirodha Samapatti is “emptiness” and I don’t know why you would say that.

I also don’t think that your interpretation of the sutta passage necessarily follows from what’s written.
Thanissaro footnote of that Sutta, then proceed reading from mn44 about cessation of perception and feeling. And its not emptiness, it is contact with emptiness on emerging.
Couldn’t find it
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
auto
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Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by auto »

Pondera wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:49 am
auto wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:01 am
Pondera wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:10 am I don’t think Nirodha Samapatti is “emptiness” and I don’t know why you would say that.

I also don’t think that your interpretation of the sutta passage necessarily follows from what’s written.
Thanissaro footnote of that Sutta, then proceed reading from mn44 about cessation of perception and feeling. And its not emptiness, it is contact with emptiness on emerging.
Couldn’t find it
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN111.html wrote:5. For a more detailed description of what a meditator experiences on emerging from the cessation of perception and feeling, see MN 44.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN44.html wrote:When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visākha, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the signless, & contact with the undirected.”2

Thanissarro footnote,
2. Emptiness, the signless, & the undirected are names for a state of concentration that lies on the threshold of unbinding. They differ only in how they are approached. According to the commentary, they color one’s first apprehension of unbinding: a meditator who has been focusing on the theme of inconstancy will first apprehend unbinding as signless; one who has been focusing on the theme of stress will first apprehend it as undirected; one who has been focusing on the theme of not-self will first apprehend it as emptiness.
my bad i actually read wrong, forget my arguments. Contact is after one has emerged.
and it seem the effluents or defilements what end simply are the verbal, bodily and mental sankharas. In that sense i thought it was about fetters, in that sense i were also wrong.
Joe.c
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Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by Joe.c »

thepea wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:38 pm Yes, I am sotapanna.
Yes, I accept that killing is required for the continuity of life.
Yes, as a sotapanna I kill.(fish, bedbugs, rodents, bugs, predators).
I believe he did mention this regarding killing. As I stated it’s about peace of mind.
Sotapanna can’t kill knowingly, if they did. I don’t think they are a sotapanna.

One who has a right view will never harm others knowingly. Because they know they take precept for happiness of them and others. They look others as the same, even a fish or a bug.

For a common folk, it is possible. Hence there is a door open to go to animal, ghost and hell realms. With this wrong view, there is only lower realm to go unfortunately.

Good luck.
Last edited by Joe.c on Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
Joe.c
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Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by Joe.c »

For me, nirodha samapatti is described in AN 11.7 and AN 10.6. Because one needs to be fully conscious.
“It could be, Ānanda, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.”
“But how could this be, sir?”

“Ānanda, it’s when a mendicant perceives: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’
The cessation of perception and feeling is not nirodha samapatti. Because no consciousness there. One can only aware after come back from this state (at least on nothingness or below).

If one entered this cessation of perception and feeling, there are two outcomes.
1. One who hasn’t ending the defilements, they will be at least a non returner. Such as Citta, visakha
2. If they ended the defilements, then they will be perfected (free by both way mind and wisdom). Such as Maha Moggallana
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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