Sotapanna and five precepts

[thepea]

Yes, I am sotapanna.
Yes, I accept that killing is required for the continuity of life.
Yes, as a sotapanna I kill.(fish, bedbugs, rodents, bugs, predators).
I believe he did mention this regarding killing. As I stated it’s about peace of mind.

Sotapanna can’t kill knowingly, if they did. I don’t think they are a sotapanna.

One who has a right view will never harm others knowingly. Because they know they take precept for happiness of them and others. They look others as the same, even a fish or a bug.

For a common folk, it is possible. Hence there is a door open to go to animal, ghost and hell realms. With this wrong view, there is only lower realm to go unfortunately.

Good luck.

What makes you believe that?
Who says sotapanna cannot kill knowingly?
A sotapanna gets bedbugs or lice and they must live with this for the rest of days?
Your comments are belief in nature and do not reflect real world scenarios.
If a sotapanna’s child was in danger, you don’t think a sotapanna would kill to protect?
Foolishness is what you speak.

[thepea]

For me, nirodha samapatti is described in AN 11.7 and AN 10.6. Because one needs to be fully conscious.

“It could be, Ānanda, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.”
“But how could this be, sir?”

“Ānanda, it’s when a mendicant perceives: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’

The cessation of perception and feeling is not nirodha samapatti. Because no consciousness there. One can only aware after come back from this state (at least on nothingness or below).

If one entered this cessation of perception and feeling, there are two outcomes.
1. One who hasn’t ending the defilements, they will be at least a non returner. Such as Citta, visakha
2. If they ended the defilements, then they will be perfected (free by both way mind and wisdom). Such as Maha Moggallana

There is consciousness in the 8th jhana.
There is conscious awareness in nirodha sampatti(nibanna).

This has been my experience of these.

[Ceisiwr]

There is consciousness in the 8th jhana.
There is conscious awareness in nirodha sampatti(nibanna).

This has been my experience of these.

According to the northern and southern masters of old that attainment is without consciousness. It’s the stopping of the mind, temporarily. Is there a reason why they are wrong and you are correct?

[Joe.c]

What makes you believe that?
Who says sotapanna cannot kill knowingly?
A sotapanna gets bedbugs or lice and they must live with this for the rest of days?
Your comments are belief in nature and do not reflect real world scenarios.
If a sotapanna’s child was in danger, you don’t think a sotapanna would kill to protect?
Foolishness is what you speak.

Let me ask you some questions. From these questions, i will know whether one is a sotapanna or one is dreaming.

How can one become a sotapanna? What is/are the condition(s)? What are the factor(s) of stream entry? Who is Buddha? What is dhamma? Who is sangha?

Foolishness

Thank you, but please give up this thought asap. I’m trying to help you get rid of wrong view for your good.

[thepea]

There is consciousness in the 8th jhana.
There is conscious awareness in nirodha sampatti(nibanna).

This has been my experience of these.

According to the northern and southern masters of old that attainment is without consciousness. It’s the stopping of the mind, temporarily. Is there a reason why they are wrong and you are correct?

Most likely as we are trying to define something beyond the third dimension so conventional words are not effective. I agree that mind door shuts, but “what” remains in the background is timeless permanent state that is within each of us always.

[thepea]

What makes you believe that?
Who says sotapanna cannot kill knowingly?
A sotapanna gets bedbugs or lice and they must live with this for the rest of days?
Your comments are belief in nature and do not reflect real world scenarios.
If a sotapanna’s child was in danger, you don’t think a sotapanna would kill to protect?
Foolishness is what you speak.

Let me ask you some questions. From these questions, i will know whether one is a sotapanna or one is dreaming.

How can one become a sotapanna? What is/are the condition(s)? What are the factor(s) of stream entry? Who is Buddha? What is dhamma? Who is sangha?

Foolishness

Thank you, but please give up this thought asap. I’m trying to help you get rid of wrong view for your good.

How will you know? Do you have a degree in saintliness?
Are you an arahant Joe?

Answers to your questions:
1. Liberate past traumas that lead to the creation of kamma of the lower states.
2.not sure of what you mean by conditions? Wisdom knowledges must be experienced.
3.is this not same question as number 2? What do you mean by factors?
4.5.6. Father, son, Holy Ghost. or awareness, annicca, jhanas.

[Ceisiwr]

There is consciousness in the 8th jhana.
There is conscious awareness in nirodha sampatti(nibanna).

This has been my experience of these.

According to the northern and southern masters of old that attainment is without consciousness. It’s the stopping of the mind, temporarily. Is there a reason why they are wrong and you are correct?

Most likely as we are trying to define something beyond the third dimension so conventional words are not effective. I agree that mind door shuts, but “what” remains in the background is timeless permanent state that is within each of us always.

There is no timeless permanent state in the Buddhadhamma.

[thepea]

According to the northern and southern masters of old that attainment is without consciousness. It’s the stopping of the mind, temporarily. Is there a reason why they are wrong and you are correct?

Most likely as we are trying to define something beyond the third dimension so conventional words are not effective. I agree that mind door shuts, but “what” remains in the background is timeless permanent state that is within each of us always.

There is no timeless permanent state in the Buddhadhamma.

Sure there is, you just call it nibanna/nirvana.
And I know it’s not a state, we get to the fifth dimension and words cannot describe this.

[Ceisiwr]

Sure there is, you just call it nibanna/nirvana.
And I know it’s not a state, we get to the fifth dimension and words cannot describe this.

Nibbāna isn’t a state, no, so it’s not a permanent state.

[thepea]

Sure there is, you just call it nibanna/nirvana.
And I know it’s not a state, we get to the fifth dimension and words cannot describe this.

Nibbāna isn’t a state, no, so it’s not a permanent state.

You need to read the quote. I address this concern.

[Joe.c]

Answers to your questions:
1. Liberate past traumas that lead to the creation of kamma of the lower states.
2.not sure of what you mean by conditions? Wisdom knowledges must be experienced.
3.is this not same question as number 2? What do you mean by factors?
4.5.6. Father, son, Holy Ghost. or awareness, annicca, jhanas.

Let just say if this is how a sotapanna response, we will be doom.

Luckily, a good Sotapanna will not be this way. Please at least study 4 factors of Sotapanna. Maybe practice.

One more thing, a Sotapanna will never claim he/she is a Sotapanna. This type of claim just feeds to his/her ego. He/she will say they have 4 factors of stream entry, then it is in line of the Buddha's teaching.

Also, please stop killing. You are just shortening your life. See MN 135:

“Take some woman or man who kills living creatures. They’re violent, bloody-handed, a hardened killer, merciless to living beings.
Because of undertaking such deeds, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.
If they’re not reborn in a place of loss, but return to the human realm, then wherever they’re reborn they’re short-lived.
For killing living creatures is the path leading to a short lifespan.

One of the quality of a Sotapanna:

a noble disciple’s ethical conduct is loved by the noble ones, unbroken, impeccable, spotless, and unmarred, liberating, praised by wise people, not mistaken, and leading to immersion.

Regarding your questions:

Who says sotapanna cannot kill knowingly?

See Sutta.

A sotapanna gets bedbugs or lice and they must live with this for the rest of days?

This is just a speculation. But, A wise person will just throw away the bed and get a new one.

Your comments are belief in nature and do not reflect real world scenarios.

I think you have been thinking too much. A Sotapanna is a very calm and collected person. If there is a doubt they just need to remember the buddha teaching, their mind will calm down automatically.

If a sotapanna’s child was in danger, you don’t think a sotapanna would kill to protect?

This is just a speculation. if he/she realized the sotapanna fruit in this life, he/she will not kill. But don't worry, he/she will never have to face this type of situation. Because their deeds/kamma vipaka will be protecting them.

[thepea]

Answers to your questions:
1. Liberate past traumas that lead to the creation of kamma of the lower states.
2.not sure of what you mean by conditions? Wisdom knowledges must be experienced.
3.is this not same question as number 2? What do you mean by factors?
4.5.6. Father, son, Holy Ghost. or awareness, annicca, jhanas.

Let just say if this is how a sotapanna response, we will be doom.

Luckily, a good Sotapanna will not be this way. Please at least study 4 factors of Sotapanna. Maybe practice.

One more thing, a Sotapanna will never claim he/she is a Sotapanna. This type of claim just feeds to his/her ego. He/she will say they have 4 factors of stream entry, then it is in line of the Buddha's teaching.

Also, please stop killing. You are just shortening your life. See MN 135:

“Take some woman or man who kills living creatures. They’re violent, bloody-handed, a hardened killer, merciless to living beings.
Because of undertaking such deeds, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.
If they’re not reborn in a place of loss, but return to the human realm, then wherever they’re reborn they’re short-lived.
For killing living creatures is the path leading to a short lifespan.

One of the quality of a Sotapanna:

a noble disciple’s ethical conduct is loved by the noble ones, unbroken, impeccable, spotless, and unmarred, liberating, praised by wise people, not mistaken, and leading to immersion.

Regarding your questions:

Who says sotapanna cannot kill knowingly?

See Sutta.

A sotapanna gets bedbugs or lice and they must live with this for the rest of days?

This is just a speculation. But, A wise person will just throw away the bed and get a new one.

Your comments are belief in nature and do not reflect real world scenarios.

I think you have been thinking too much. A Sotapanna is a very calm and collected person. If there is a doubt they just need to remember the buddha teaching, their mind will calm down automatically.

If a sotapanna’s child was in danger, you don’t think a sotapanna would kill to protect?

This is just a speculation. if he/she realized the sotapanna fruit in this life, he/she will not kill. But don't worry, he/she will never have to face this type of situation. Because their deeds/kamma vipaka will be protecting them.

A few points:
-your sutta says a killer without mercy bloodied hands, etc...
I’ve already explained fishing at least the fishing I do is for food. There is mercy both in my thoughts and actions the way I handle the fish. I don’t have thoughts of hatred towards the fish, only thoughts of gratitude.
The sutta you provided has a different feel about that which I believe it is describing.

-regarding bed bugs, lice, etc...
Volunteering at Vipassana centres a few times I was involved with steaming mattresses. Superheating the mattress to kill the infestation. Many beds on a wing had to be done if someone brought an infestation in.
It seems unwise to throw away beds and mattresses($$$) when they can be sanitized. This is killing, we just inform the bedbugs of what’s coming and ask them to leave beforehand. Keep mind light, no hatred or I’ll will.

-speculation??? I’m asking questions that are real life for sotapannas. Your kid gets lice or you have to feed them, or if someone meant them harm. Perhaps you are correct in that the sotapanna is protected(I have not experienced anyone trying to harm my offspring.

-declaration of being a sotapanna.
Where does Buddha say a sotapanna cannot declare his/her attainment to the world. I’m not asking for gifts or praise. Also Buddha told the world of his attainment, did he not(as the story goes)?

-How is me killing, shortening my life? How is this logical or proven?

-yes, my morality is praised by the noble. I am living man and act accordingly. I act rightly even when the masses are doing the opposite.

[Joe.c]

Good luck. Can't help closed minded person.

I don’t have thoughts of hatred towards the fish, only thoughts of gratitude.

When one is fishing for only personal happiness/gain and suffering of others. That is not a perfect morality, sorry. Please study again how Buddha taught morality to all the noble devotees.

Also, I senses alot of identity view, wrong view, non understanding of sutta, misunderstanding of morality. For sure can't be a sotapanna.

I doubt one can even go to heaven with this wrong view.

[thepea]

Good luck. Can't help closed minded person.

I don’t have thoughts of hatred towards the fish, only thoughts of gratitude.

When one is fishing for only personal happiness/gain and suffering of others. That is not a perfect morality, sorry. Please study again how Buddha taught morality to all the noble devotees.

Also, I senses alot of identity view, wrong view, non understanding of sutta, misunderstanding of morality. For sure can't be a sotapanna.

I doubt one can even go to heaven with this wrong view.

I didn’t say fishing is perfect morality. My statements are that when one retreats inward one must follow precepts meticulously. But.... once back to laylife one is free to continue with fishing, farming, hunting, etc.... providing food for community. Unless this individual finds these tasks conflicting with their peaceful mental state then one should not take part in these actions.
Like I said before natives hunted and gathered for centuries and have a beautiful connection and harmony with the earth. There is a difference between gathering ones food from nature vs a grocery store. There is no need to vilify meat and it’s harvesting. You are free to do so, I use find this a juvenile and even morally pompous view.

We can agree that you find my views on morality different from yours and that’s ok, but how can you judge me as not a sotapanna when my actions are in alignment with buddhas teachings 100%. Nowhere does Buddha say a sotapanna cannot kill.

I’m happy to answer any questions you might have, as far as heaven I have the full range of heavenly planes of existence available.

[Joe.c]

I didn’t say fishing is perfect morality. My statements are that when one retreats inward one must follow precepts meticulously. But.... once back to laylife one is free to continue with fishing, farming, hunting, etc.... providing food for community. Unless this individual finds these tasks conflicting with their peaceful mental state then one should not take part in these actions.
Like I said before natives hunted and gathered for centuries and have a beautiful connection and harmony with the earth. There is a difference between gathering ones food from nature vs a grocery store. There is no need to vilify meat and it’s harvesting. You are free to do so, I use find this a juvenile and even morally pompous view.

We can agree that you find my views on morality different from yours and that’s ok, but how can you judge me as not a sotapanna when my actions are in alignment with buddhas teachings 100%. Nowhere does Buddha say a sotapanna cannot kill.

I’m happy to answer any questions you might have, as far as heaven I have the full range of heavenly planes of existence available.

Er.. But Sotapanna has a perfect morality. They can break only minor precept, but the Ariyan precepts (7) can’t be broken includin killing. To be a sotapanna is not only in daily retreat. A sotapanna practice 24 hours a day, there is no stopping.

Even in daily life, they maintain the right view and perfect precepts. This is why if they are to die at anytime, they only go to human and heavenly realms (6 pleasurable heavens). They can’t go to lower realms because of wrong view and breaking precepts.

Please study more sutta. And practice in daily life. Practice in teaching of Buddha is not only to sit and meditate during retreat.

Good luck.