Sotapanna and five precepts

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
sunnat
Posts: 1431
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:08 am

Post by sunnat »

sunnat wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:01 pm There are many reasons you have provided for not being a streamenterer.

You claim to make many beings suffer death. This is making very bad kamma. One day, certainly at your inevitable death, you will reap what you have sown.

A stream enterer is one because there is deep awareness of feelings and that these feelings are not-self and stubbornly clinging to them leads to unhappiness.

You claim to be happy to kill. This can only be because you are not stream enterer.
You don’t feel shame.
You are very deluded.

Buddhists are being very patient and kind. Do your self a favour and listen.
also, compassion for beings is recognition of the feelings of other beings. The beings you deprive of life suffer when it happens. They don’t like being killed and struggle to escape. The idea that this is ameliorated by thoughts of mercy on your part is a fantasy, an excuse that only serve you, not the beings you deprive of life. This callous self grasping is not a quality of the sotapanna.
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4646
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

If you become a Sotāpanna will you want others to know that?
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
User avatar
S. Johann
Posts: 202
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:03 pm
Location: Aural, Kampuchea
Contact:

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by S. Johann »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:32 am If you become a Sotāpanna will you want others to know that?
Sharing one's merits, Bhante, is of cause and not beloved Dhamma, in western, modern communities, but all kind of stinginess falls by reaching the stream, is attribute of Noble Ones. Communities not eager in practicing share of merits and mudita are also not pleasing to dwell and full of conflicts.

Of course, not in all relations, it's conductive to share valued things, as not all communities are maintained to encourage each other forward but merely for stand-maintaining.

Anybody here wishing to share his gains and merits public so that those rejoicing with it gain a good part (lesser via pm to get a team)?

Good householder have even highest approve to even share it, when knowing, when ways downwardly have taken an end, to inspire others.
You may make use of this account as wished for good, it's a cast off one. Password: 12345678. As the good stuff gets usually censured here, good if being quick to find ways out.
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by Alex123 »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Fri May 11, 2018 9:53 am I think Bhava Sankhara is, like, the attachment to life, a sort of clinging to existence, that upon death leads to rebirth.
Isn't this a fetter that is broken by an Arahant? Sotapanna has 6 more rebirths, so that fetter isn't yet destroyed. What is destroyed are the 3 fetters
(sakkaya-ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbata-paramaso) .
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by Alex123 »

seeker242 wrote: Fri May 11, 2018 12:02 pm
SarathW wrote: Fri May 11, 2018 7:55 am 1)It is frustrating that even a prominent monk such as him is not a Sotapanna yet.
Why would another persons practice be frustrating to one's own?

IMHO, if thousands/millions of people practice the Dhamma and don't attain results, then it looks like something is really really wrong. It destroys confidence in oneself, the monks, and the Teaching (Svakkhato Bhagavata dhammo sanditthiko akaliko ehipassiko opanayiko paccattam vedittabbo vinnuhi).
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by Alex123 »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:32 am If you become a Sotāpanna will you want others to know that?
Bhante,

While I wouldn't go around telling everyone about it unasked, I wouldn't try to conceal it when asked or when disclosure would benefit others and the Dhamma.

It would be really inspiring and uplifting if laypeople and/or bhikkhus (following Vinaya rules) would make truthful and timely declaration of their attainments that: "It can be done. Dhamma works here and now".
thepea
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:08 am
thepea wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:10 am
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:32 am

Correct. And as soon as they cease to observe the precepts meticulously, they cease to be a sotapanna.



All of that is OK so long as it is not intentional killing.
That makes no sense. Are you suggesting the fetters were not destroyed?

Yes, intention is the difference with killing. This is what those suttas are discerning.
Habitual killing with no mercy vs killing with mercy.
A sotapanna kills with mercy.
I'm suggesting that intention is crucial in that the unintended deaths of creatures has no kammic weight, whereas deliberate killing is, as per the suttas quoted, incompatible with stream-entry.
Yes, I comprehend the difference in the belief structure argument.
I am saying that I am capable of killing fish and eating them. And the corresponding mindset that goes with this while in the process of catching or eating is very happy.
Good for the fish and good for my body and my families. The fish has given Dana and is respected through the process.
Kamma is light and passes very quickly.

You have not provided any substantial evidence to negate my claim.
It stands.
I am sotapanna :guns:
thepea
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by thepea »

Joe.c wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:44 pm
refrain from something merely means that you do not do them.
This is why I don’t like refrain wording to be used for stream enterers. I prefer give up or let go or stop doing knowingly (consciously). It is more strict, hence there is not many stream enterers in this world.

Restrain only for common folk that haven’t seen the path.

Please stop saying stream enterer can kill. One who said it is just spreading Adhamma, the result (now or future) will not be good for sure.
I am a steam enterer and have set foot on land. I can kill and eat fish to sustain my body and my families.
I was fishing one day and a couple who fish for fun filled my bucket with fresh caught fish. I did not chastise them for sport fishing, I thanked them graciously and delivered them to a neighbouring couple down the road from me who are of little means. They in turn thanked me and to this day we have sparked a wonderful relationship and it was the good merit of those fish. This is dhamma at work spreading happiness and good will.
And hopefully those fish are reborn in higher realm.
Good, good, good, happy happy happy!
You on the other hand are threatening me with kammic consequences. How is that spreading joy?
thepea
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by thepea »

2600htz wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:51 pm Hi:

The way i see the question of this topic is that some people being sotapannas have certainty while others dont have a clue they are, they just suspect they experienced something great but cant put it in words.

This is because suttas are not enough and you need the voice of another to match experiences.

Regarding the question of sotapannas being able to break precepts, i dont know. I think there are valid points to both sides. I will go with the idea of thepea that just because a sutta says sotapannas abstain or refrain of something its not enough. I mean in many suttas abstaining and refraining are PRACTICES. I mean efforts of abstaining or refraining from actions, thoughts, etc. Monks abstain and refrain yet they sometimes break this effort.

Also i dont remember who or where it was said cessation of perception and feeling is a state you can be aware. I think thats plain wrong.

Regards.
I look at parmis as a clue to this.
Sotas can vary in purity, they are not all alike.
we have 10 jars to fill to become arahants.
You are ripe for the experience of sota when 25% of each jar has been filled.
Some sotas can fill every jar to 99% except one and then reach the 25% mark in that final jar, they are a very pure sota and I highly doubt these sotas would fish or farm or hunt.
Then there is the sota who has evenly developed 25% in each jar, this is the lowest developed sota, and I can see these as family men/woman working, farming, fishing, hunting, harvesting energy from the earth and distributing to others.
This is why the Buddha was not absolute with his wording regarding killing. But was absolute with the three types of murder a sota is incapable of committing. But a sota could be a soldier or kill in self defence or if threatened.
The fetters of greed and attachment are still to strong in the 25% sota.
thepea
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by thepea »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:32 am If you become a Sotāpanna will you want others to know that?
Why did Buddha share his success?
A noble can teach as they see fit, unless bound by rags.
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by Ontheway »

thepea wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:08 pm
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:32 am If you become a Sotāpanna will you want others to know that?
Why did Buddha share his success?
A noble can teach as they see fit, unless bound by rags.
Now you are labelling yourself as "noble".
A good joke on internet. :rofl:

Now this is your true attainment.
2. "Whosoever in this world kills living beings, once born or twice born,[2] in whom there is no sympathy for living beings — know him as an outcast.
- Vasalasutta
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
2600htz
Posts: 825
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by 2600htz »

thepea wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:45 pm
2600htz wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:51 pm Hi:

The way i see the question of this topic is that some people being sotapannas have certainty while others dont have a clue they are, they just suspect they experienced something great but cant put it in words.

This is because suttas are not enough and you need the voice of another to match experiences.

Regarding the question of sotapannas being able to break precepts, i dont know. I think there are valid points to both sides. I will go with the idea of thepea that just because a sutta says sotapannas abstain or refrain of something its not enough. I mean in many suttas abstaining and refraining are PRACTICES. I mean efforts of abstaining or refraining from actions, thoughts, etc. Monks abstain and refrain yet they sometimes break this effort.

Also i dont remember who or where it was said cessation of perception and feeling is a state you can be aware. I think thats plain wrong.

Regards.
I look at parmis as a clue to this.
Sotas can vary in purity, they are not all alike.
we have 10 jars to fill to become arahants.
You are ripe for the experience of sota when 25% of each jar has been filled.
Some sotas can fill every jar to 99% except one and then reach the 25% mark in that final jar, they are a very pure sota and I highly doubt these sotas would fish or farm or hunt.
Then there is the sota who has evenly developed 25% in each jar, this is the lowest developed sota, and I can see these as family men/woman working, farming, fishing, hunting, harvesting energy from the earth and distributing to others.
This is why the Buddha was not absolute with his wording regarding killing. But was absolute with the three types of murder a sota is incapable of committing. But a sota could be a soldier or kill in self defence or if threatened.
The fetters of greed and attachment are still to strong in the 25% sota.
Hi thepea:

Yeah like i said i am not 100% sure if sotapannas can or cannot break precepts.

But in the case they can, it would be when pushed against the wall. (Example killing a mosquito if you have a fobia and are already being bitten 3 times, adding water to a plate you need to clean quickly and has some ants, etc. )

On hunting, i dont know, i find it hard being pushed to a corner where you "need" to do it. Maybe if you are really poor, or its so engrained in your lifestyle being a family tradition you have been doing since childhood.

In this cases the sotapanna, being subject to the 5 hindrances and 7 fetters ,breaks their sila because of hindrances, hoping to do better in the future.

Anyways, it would be interesting if you can precisely explain how did you attained sotapanna so others can check if it matches their ideas. Was path and fruition at the same time, did you go through the jhanas, did you experienced a cessation or perception and feelings,etc.

Regards
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:21 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:08 am
thepea wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:10 am

That makes no sense. Are you suggesting the fetters were not destroyed?

Yes, intention is the difference with killing. This is what those suttas are discerning.
Habitual killing with no mercy vs killing with mercy.
A sotapanna kills with mercy.
I'm suggesting that intention is crucial in that the unintended deaths of creatures has no kammic weight, whereas deliberate killing is, as per the suttas quoted, incompatible with stream-entry.
Yes, I comprehend the difference in the belief structure argument.
I am saying that I am capable of killing fish and eating them. And the corresponding mindset that goes with this while in the process of catching or eating is very happy.
Good for the fish and good for my body and my families. The fish has given Dana and is respected through the process.
Kamma is light and passes very quickly.

You have not provided any substantial evidence to negate my claim.
It stands.
I am sotapanna :guns:
Ah, I get it now! When you say you are a stream-enterer, you mean that you enter your local stream and come out with a couple of nice fish for your lunch, is that right? :redherring:
thepea
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by thepea »

2600htz wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:40 pm Anyways, it would be interesting if you can precisely explain how did you attained sotapanna so others can check if it matches their ideas. Was path and fruition at the same time, did you go through the jhanas, did you experienced a cessation or perception and feelings,etc.

Regards
Sure, it’s nothing that’s not available to anyone who practices as Buddha prescribes.

I followed the sila meticulously,
no killing
no stealing
no speaking(so that I couldn’t even accidentally exaggerate) also speaking can stir up the mind
No sexual misconduct(basically no sex period including masturbation.
No intoxicants(nothing no cigarettes, no alcohol, no drugs of any kind not even Advil.

Then I practiced observing breath until I could sense the subtler and subtler aspects of it and hold awareness on this object for longer and longer time periods. The only time is stopped was when I drifted asleep. The nimitta becomes prevalent and I focused on this absorbing into this for periods. Not hours and hours but 5-10 minute bursts of intense absorption. Maybe an hour tops on a couple occasions.

Then I penetrated into the body and observed the sensations within, making certain not to get attached to any one body part, moving awareness throughout the body. This is not always successful as I was drawn to intense painful sensations in hips and lower extremities at times.
I kept strong determination to hold posture and remain equanimous with whatever I was feeling. Not successful all the time here either.

Then I would practice forgiving myself for any shortcomings and send love out to all living beings.

I did this for consistent periods of time of no less than 10 days over two years.

Then having passed through the insight knowledges I died.

The body sense doors shut down as I passed through the first four supramundane jhanas consecutively, then the mind door shut down as I passed through the supramundane arupa jhanas consecutively, then .......Nibanna.
Then light as I was reborn into form.

The experience lasted 1 hr approx.

Then all the questions I’ve had regarding the universe were answered with this experience, and nibanna is always as it has always been part of me, just now I’m aware of it in arising and passing as the timeless gap amongst this creation and destruction of life.
thepea
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: If you become a Sotapanna will you know that?

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:04 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:21 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:08 am

I'm suggesting that intention is crucial in that the unintended deaths of creatures has no kammic weight, whereas deliberate killing is, as per the suttas quoted, incompatible with stream-entry.
Yes, I comprehend the difference in the belief structure argument.
I am saying that I am capable of killing fish and eating them. And the corresponding mindset that goes with this while in the process of catching or eating is very happy.
Good for the fish and good for my body and my families. The fish has given Dana and is respected through the process.
Kamma is light and passes very quickly.

You have not provided any substantial evidence to negate my claim.
It stands.
I am sotapanna :guns:
Ah, I get it now! When you say you are a stream-enterer, you mean that you enter your local stream and come out with a couple of nice fish for your lunch, is that right? :redherring:
No, I’m not on the citizenship anymore, I entered the water and swam to shore. I fish and farm from the dry land.
Post Reply