Bundles of reeds simile.

[SarathW]

Thanks Mike.
Can we apply the same simile to other limbs?
Say Avijja and Sankhara.

Ok will get back to the question in OP.

[mikenz66]

With all due respect to Sarath, the problems arise because he takes commentarial Abhidhamma notions (such as that of rupa as "materiality", and nama as "mentality") and tries to super-impose them over the suttas, where rupa actually means "form", and "nama" is as described as being exclusive of vinnana.

Trying to reconcile the two sets of definitions is probably a noble intention, but it's a common cause of confusion, as demonstrated once more here.

Yes, it's important not to confuse different definitions. And if one does want to make use of the commentaries it is crucial to read them carefully. In the commentaries, nama excludes consciousness when referring to the nama-rupa link of dependent origination.
E.g. Visuddhimagga Chapter XVIII: https://www.bps.lk/bookshop-search.php?styp=l&d=bp207h

[( IV ) MENTALITY -M ATERIALITY ]
186. For the clause, “With consciousness as condition, mentality-materiality”:
(1) By analysis of mind and matter,
(2) Occurrence in becoming, etc.,
(3) Inclusion, and (4) manner of condition,
The exposition should be known.
187. 1. By analysis of mind and matter: here “mind” (náma—mentality) is the
three aggregates, that is, feeling, perception, and formations, because of their
bending (namana) on to the object. “Matter” (rúpa—materiality) is the four great
primary elements and the materiality derived [by clinging] from the four great
primaries. Their analysis is given in the Description of the Aggregates (XIV.34f.,
125f.). This, in the first place, is how the exposition of mentality-materiality should
be known “by analysis.”

This seems to be different from the sutta definition, but not as different as the erronious assumption that nama is the four aggregates apart from rupa.


Mike

[sentinel]

When Buddha describing the five aggregates , the rupa khandhas are referring to the six sense media (plus 5 sense objects imo) not it's materiality quality .
If we expand the five aggregates it becomes the dependent origination .
If we were to solve the issue of consciousness conditions namarupa and namarupa conditions consciousness , the above mentioned would be the solution to the millennium deep end .

[SarathW]

The way I understand Nama, Rupa, and Nama Rupa is different.
Rupa = Four great elements
Nama = Sutta description
Nama-rupa = Dependent origination description
The problem I see is that we are trying to separate something inseparable.
We are too much attached to descriptions.

[sentinel]

The way I understand Nama, Rupa, and Nama Rupa is different.
Rupa = Four great elements
Nama = Sutta description
Nama-rupa = Dependent origination description
The problem I see is that we are trying to separate something inseparable.
We are too much attached to descriptions.

How do you define namarupa so to explain consciousness conditions namarupa and namarupa conditions consciousness ?

[SarathW]

How do you define namarupa so to explain consciousness conditions namarupa and namarupa conditions consciousness ?

To understand you have to define what is Vinnana in Dependent Origination.
This is how I understand by Vinnana.
Say I went to a party and they served me a nice cake.
I ate it unmindfully. - Avijja
Then I create a picture of the cake in my mind in every detail - Sankhara
Then I came home and thinking about the cake - Vinnana
Then I visualise the cake and ask the recipe from the friend and create the cake in my mind - Namarupa
Then I made the cake - Salayatana

How do you understand it with the same example?

[sentinel]

How do you define namarupa so to explain consciousness conditions namarupa and namarupa conditions consciousness ?

To understand you have to define what is Vinnana in Dependent Origination.
This is how I understand by Vinnana.
Say I went to a party and they served me a nice cake.
I ate it unmindfully. - Avijja
Then I create a picture of the cake in my mind in every detail - Sankhara
Then I came home and thinking about the cake - Vinnana
Then I visualise the cake and ask the recipe from the friend and create the cake in my mind - Namarupa
Then I made the cake - Salayatana

How do you understand it with the same example?

Here is how the dependent origination
should goes about .
Let’s say I look at a cake and I don't understand or sees clearly how the process involves in eyes media interactivity with the object , the arising and passing of the phenomena that is ignorant . In the looking there is a sense of " I " and thinking that is unchanging reality that is sankhara .
By looking at the cake , the Visual that appears is the consciousness . And in the act of looking there arises like or dislike of the cake , so there is a pursuing or rejecting in the mind .
The whole process of interaction between the sense media and its object is the namarupa .
This process will only stops at the death of a person . And then continue into next birth with new six sense media . Etc etc .

[SarathW]

The whole process of interaction between the sense media and its object is the namarupa .

Salayatana comes after namarupa.

[sentinel]

The whole process of interaction between the sense media and its object is the namarupa .

Salayatana comes after namarupa.

Salayatana in the dependent origination is next life .

[SarathW]

Salayatana in the dependent origination is next life .

So there is no namarupa in this life?
Just imagine you are in the life after next. (four life model)

[sentinel]

Salayatana in the dependent origination is next life .

So there is no namarupa in this life?
Just imagine you are in the life after next. (four life model)

I mean the Salayatana link . You have to read again above .

[Dhammarakkhito]

"...this Dhamma is visible here-&-now, not subject to time, inviting all to come & see, pertinent, to be known by the wise for themselves."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
a dead body doesn't have form because it doesnt have name

[SarathW]

With all due respect to Sarath

I am still trying to understand what you message.
Is there some detailed reading material to explain these differences?
PS: I found the following link.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=30921&hilit=what+is+nama+rup

[SarathW]

Could someone tell me whether Dependent Origination also means interdependent?
HHD says that DO has to be understood in above two levels.
Is this the Theravada teaching as well?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Sarath,

Could someone tell me whether Dependent Origination also means interdependent?
HHD says that DO has to be understood in above two levels.
Is this the Theravada teaching as well?

Without watching the video, no. Only the nama-rupa and vinnana could reasonably be said to be "interdependent", for the reasons stated previously.

What HHDL appears to be alluding to (based on your representation of it, at least) is a concept like either interbeing or the Butterfly Effect, moreso than the Buddha's teaching.

Metta,
Paul.