Which type of Nibbana is the most important?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Which type of Nibbana is the most important?

Nibbana-element with residue left
2
29%
Nibbana-element with no residue left
5
71%
 
Total votes: 7

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DooDoot
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Re: Which type of Nibbana is the most important?

Post by DooDoot »

In my opinion, Nibbana with residue is the most important because:

1. The impression is seekers during the Buddha's time (such as Alara Kalama & Uddaka Ramaputta) were seeking a Nibbana with as little feelings (vedana) as possible. The Buddha seemed to realise the only Liberated Nibbana possible for a living mind was Nibbana with feelings (vedana) but without craving & without attachment.

2. If Nibbana with residue is not attained; it appears not possible to attain Nibbana without residue. Since it seems only Nibbana with residue can guarantee Nibbana without residue; it seems Nibbana with residue is the most important.
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justindesilva
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Re: Which type of Nibbana is the most important?

Post by justindesilva »

Then is it possible to understand "nibbana" as nibbana with residue and parinibbana as nibbana without residue.
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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Which type of Nibbana is the most important?

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

there is no other culmination of the holy life than nibbāna, there is no residual clinging thereafter. complete and immediate
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
https://suttacentral.net/dn16/en/anandajoti
https://suttacentral.net/dn16/pli/ms
my current understanding is like this

30. Anupādisesa-nibbāna-dhātu. Unbinding as experienced by an arahant at death. According to Iti 44, there are two unbinding properties: that with fuel remaining, and that with no fuel remaining. The first refers to unbinding as experienced before death. The second, to unbinding as experienced after death. Thag 15:2 hints at the image behind these terms. The first unbinding property corresponds to a fire that has gone out but whose embers are still glowing. The second, to a fire so totally out that no glowing embers remain. See the discussion in The Mind Like Fire Unbound, chapter 1.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN16.html
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Ruud
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Re: Which type of Nibbana is the most important?

Post by Ruud »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:01 am 2. If Nibbana with residue is not attained; it appears not possible to attain Nibbana without residue. Since it seems only Nibbana with residue can guarantee Nibbana without residue; it seems Nibbana with residue is the most important.
What about attaining enlightenment at the time of death?
When the seven awakening factors are developed and cultivated in this way they can expect seven fruits and benefits. What seven? They attain enlightenment early on in this very life. If not, they attain enlightenment at the time of death. If not, with the ending of the five lower fetters, they’re extinguished in-between one life and the next. If not, with the ending of the five lower fetters they’re extinguished upon landing. If not, with the ending of the five lower fetters they’re extinguished without extra effort. If not, with the ending of the five lower fetters they’re extinguished with extra effort. If not, with the ending of the five lower fetters they head upstream, going to the Akaniṭṭha realm. When the seven awakening factors are developed and cultivated in this way these are the seven fruits and benefits they can expect.
https://suttacentral.net/sn46.3/en/sujato
Dry up what pertains to the past,
do not take up anything to come later.
If you will not grasp in the middle,
you will live at peace.
—Snp.5.11,v.1099 (tr. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)

Whatever is will be was. —Ven. Ñānamoli, A Thinkers Notebook, §221
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pitakele
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Re: Which type of Nibbana is the most important?

Post by pitakele »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:01 am 2. If Nibbana with residue is not attained; it appears not possible to attain Nibbana without residue. Since it seems only Nibbana with residue can guarantee Nibbana without residue; it seems Nibbana with residue is the most important.
I don't think there is any ambiguity in the teachings that nibbāna without residue is a consequence of nibbāna with residue. This is what happens when the aggregates of the arahat 'break up' - as described in the Nibbānadhātu Sutta you quoted https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... ml#iti-044

To my understanding of the teachings, parinibbāna (final cooling) is the same for all. Of course, there will be variations in in the ability of arahats (whilst extent) to enter nirodhasamāpatti.

I have never heard practitioners say they are striving for parinibbāna (nibbāna without residue), but I have heard many say they are striving for the end of dukkha.
now here = nowhere
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mikenz66
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Re: Which type of Nibbana is the most important?

Post by mikenz66 »

justindesilva wrote: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:00 am Then is it possible to understand "nibbana" as nibbana with residue and parinibbana as nibbana without residue.
No. See this from Bhikkhu Bodhi for a detailed discussion: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=14143&start=40#p209545

See also: viewtopic.php?t=22106

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sentinel
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Re: Which type of Nibbana is the most important?

Post by sentinel »

There is only 1 type of Nibbana which is the ending of greed hatred and ignorant aka liberation . Ie stopping of the cycle of birth and death . Nibbana also means no more future birth .

<<Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.>>


Please note that Nibbana without residue means after the break up of the aggregates .
The difference is that in reference to the sense organ still functioning for the Nibbana with residue .
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