What was the innovation of Siddhartha Gautama?

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Saengnapha
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Re: What was the innovation of Siddhartha Gautama?

Post by Saengnapha »

chownah wrote: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:37 am
Saengnapha wrote: Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:15 am
chownah wrote: Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:37 am
Perhaps you misread that quote. I think it says that "namely, specific conditionality, dependent origination" is the new thing.
chownah
Haven't I read that the Buddha said he 'rediscovered' what was lost in the culture of his day? If something is rediscovered, it is not a new thing. In fact, there is a very good possibility that in other parts of the world, perhaps the classical world of the Mediterranean, that whatever the Buddha discovered was in fact still alive. I don't think we have any way of knowing this as we don't even know if this is something the Buddha actually said. I think the power of 'fake news' has been going on for millenium as the desire to sway others towards something is one of man's chief problems. Why would anyone be hung up on 'the innovation of Siddhartha Gautama'? Pure marketing? The Christ, he died for your sins is another statement that comes to mind. We all want to spin a story for our own purposes.
Perhaps you misinterpreted my post. I have not indicated that I am in agreement with anything and was simply pointing out how the quote actually did contain an answer to the question.
As to if the buddha "rediscovered" what was lost....I think that the pali canon claims that there were buddha's that came before gotama and that gotama rediscovered the dhamma....in theravada the idea of a samasam buddha is that they rediscover the dhamma and since gotama was a samasam buddha then by definition it was a rediscovery.

As to whether the buddha was pure marketing....I believe there is a sutta (perhaps two) where the buddha while debating someone of some other belief system he asked where were the awakened disciples of that other belief system (there were none) and the buddha stated that he had hundreds and hundreds of them....(false claim?)...noone is reported to have disputed that (suppression of facts?) Also, the buddha (again in a sort of debate situation) claimed to be able to remain in a state of transcendental bliss for as long as he like....and this wasn't questioned either. False claim? with suppressed reporting?

You can of course just claim that the entire pali canon is fake news....then there would be nothing to discuss so I doubt that you would make that claim.
chownah
I don't think I implied that you were or weren't in agreement. I was running with the claims that were quoted about innovation, etc., and making some general observations. I believe very little of what is given as 'gospel' in many of these accounts of gatherings. I have no way of corroborating any of it.

Cheers.
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Re: What was the innovation of Siddhartha Gautama?

Post by 2600htz »

Hello:

Basically the teaching of dependent origination and what comes around it to explain the cessation of stress.

I think there is a reference in the suttas that couldn´t find, but goes something like "and then after giving a talk on morality,virtue,rebirth,etc. the buddha gives a talk about the topic only known by buddhas, that is depend co-arising, "if this exists, that exists; if this ceases to exist, that also ceases to exist".

Regards.
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Re: What was the innovation of Siddhartha Gautama?

Post by DooDoot »

Viachh wrote: Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:34 am As we know, Siddhartha Gautama had two teachers Alara(Arada) Kalama and Udraka Ramaputra. But he surpassed them. What essentially new did Siddhartha Gautama bring into his yogic practice that allowed him to become a Buddha? I emphasize specifically: what new had he brought into his practice, and not what he discovered (anatta, 4NT, etc.) as a result of using this new (modified) practice.
Its written in the suttas. Instead, of allowing the natural stream of samadhi to naturally develop into the immaterial (arupa) jhanas; the Buddha used the clarity of the 4th jhana to examine the realities of suffering. The Buddha-To-Be did this because (per MN 26) he realised the practises of Alara (Arada) Kalama and Udraka Ramaputra did not end suffering.
Monks, before I attained supreme Enlightenment, while I was still a Bodhisatta, the thought occurred to me: 'This world, alas, has fallen into sore distress. There is being born, growing old, dying, passing over and being reborn. But from all this suffering, from decay and death, no way of release is apparent. Surely there must be some way of release discoverable from this suffering, this decay-and-death.'

"Then, monks, this thought occurred to me 'What being present does decay-and-death come to be? What conditions decay-and-death?' Then, monks, as I considered this thoroughly, the insight and comprehension dawned on me: 'Birth being present, death-and-decay comes to be; decay-and-death is conditioned by birth.' Then the thought occurred to me: 'What being present does birth come to be? What conditions birth?... becoming... grasping... craving... feeling... contact... the six sense-bases... name-form... consciousness... formations?...' Then, as I considered this thoroughly, the insight and comprehension dawned on me: 'Ignorance being present the formations come to be; the formations are conditioned by ignorance.' And so we have it like this: 'Conditioned by ignorance are the formations, conditioned by the formations is consciousness... So there comes about the arising of this entire mass of suffering.'

"'Arising, arising!' — At this thought, monks, there arose in me, concerning things unheard of before, vision, knowledge, understanding, light.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of space and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated. One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure and bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated.' One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

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StormBorn
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Re: What was the innovation of Siddhartha Gautama?

Post by StormBorn »

According to the DN 10, the Brahmin youth Subha once said to the Venerable Ananda that he do not see this division of Ariyan morality, concentration, and wisdom fulfilled thus anywhere among the ascetics and Brahmins of other schools.
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atipattoh
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Re: What was the innovation of Siddhartha Gautama?

Post by atipattoh »

Viachh wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:56 pm What essentially new did Siddhartha Gautama bring into his yogic practice that allowed him to become a Buddha?
From what I have learned so far, it seems Buddhist does not recognize the “arupa attainment” by Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputra within the 9 attainments. Jhana as per AN9.34 Extinguishment for example, does not include that; there is no expansion to include experiences prior to Jhana.

If you follow the chronology of Buddha enlightenment, it occurred after He recalled His Jhana experience when He was a kid; which means the “arupa” “attainment” of Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputra does not require rupa Jhana. When I say Jhana, I only means rupa Jhana, so I'll skip the word rupa.

So what did Buddha's input within the bhavana practice that redefined the ascetic's bhavana within that era? Like the one in AN9.34; the reverse mode. I use the word 'mode' instead of order for a reason. Prior to Jhana, there are so call “arupa” experience, with all six sense bases in operative when necessary. Only until towards the end of Neither-Perception-Nor-Non-Perception (nPnNP; which is a coarse one, by the way) that, reducing to only mind base remains; there rest are being suspended. The question then is; why Uddaka Ramaputra did not reach Jhana? What was the object that Uddaka use to arrive at nPnNp; I have not heard of, if I did i can not recall. Perhaps someone can point that out.

It is unlikely that Uddaka perfected this stage, if he did, he would have attained Jhana. The only speculation that I could make is that the Buddha, with His superior parami, transform what Uddaka has taught Him further 2 more transformations. Within Visuddhimagga, both are termed as uggaha nimitta and patibhaga nimitta respectively. I believe Uddaka may have falls short at Parikamma Nimitta. If his practice has reach uggaha nimitta, with his own further effort he could have perfected it up to patibhaga nimitta, Uddaka may have attained Jhana on his own then.

The good thing is, Uddaka has open up a potential path to enlightenment for Gautama Buddha; after Gautama Buddha's Jhana attainments, He could recollect the experience on the “regression” path (the process is progression, but within the point of view for Jhana being at the center, the post-Jhana arupa is termed regression); from cessation to nPnNP, Nothingness, Consciousness and Space, before defilement comes rushing in. But for Uddaka himself, probably merely accidentally, once a while stumbled onto parikamma nimitta. His knowledge of arupa is without the knowledge of rupa attainments. The arupa knowledge introduced by Buddha is based on the knowledge in rupa attainments. I avoid using the word order in the reverse sequence, simply because the arupa immersion is not in the chronology order, each of them is of separate process. Within each cycle, immerse within one of it, although meditator brushes through all of it; so I call it “Reverse Mode”

Arupa without rupa attainments is not at par with arupa with rupa attainments.
Meditators with the basis of rupa attainments, upon attainments of Arupa knowledge, I don't think will go thru induction birth in the arupa realm. For them, already know that the complete sequence of a “gap” till the infinite space is only one minute moment, there is no clinging onto it; they always has rupa jhana to fall back to. However, Alara and Uddaka are different story.

In case one might ask, why is that the sutta like AN9.34 does not include those coarse arupa prior to Jhana? Well, you can try to put that into the sutta, for one that do not have a glimpse of direct experience mind moment; for a reader, would that be helping or the opposite? Furthermore, back then, those coarse arupa practices were readily available to the ascetics. So, the inclusion; perhaps was unnecessary.
Viachh
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Re: What was the innovation of Siddhartha Gautama?

Post by Viachh »

Viachh wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:56 pm What essentially new did Siddhartha Gautama bring into his yogic practice that allowed him to become a Buddha?

Like Galileo, Buddha did not invent shamatha (telescope), but only improved it. Like Galileo, he used the increased (due to the practice of shamatha) sensitivity and obedience of the mind, directing (vipashyana) them to what is (satellites of Jupiter, etc.). Galileo discovered that the Earth revolves around the Sun, although it seems the opposite. Buddha discovered the absence of self (and that we are all asleep), although the opposite seems to be the case. Thus, the main innovation for both consists in the application of already available equipment (telescope, shamatha) to a new object of study (space objects, stream of consciousness) and the correct interpretation of the experimental (yogic) data obtained. So Columbus, although he reached America, thought that he sailed to India.
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Re: What was the innovation of Siddhartha Gautama?

Post by Pondera »

Viachh wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 4:05 am
Viachh wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:56 pm What essentially new did Siddhartha Gautama bring into his yogic practice that allowed him to become a Buddha?

Like Galileo, Buddha did not invent shamatha (telescope), but only improved it. Like Galileo, he used the increased (due to the practice of shamatha) sensitivity and obedience of the mind, directing (vipashyana) them to what is (satellites of Jupiter, etc.). Galileo discovered that the Earth revolves around the Sun, although it seems the opposite. Buddha discovered the absence of self (and that we are all asleep), although the opposite seems to be the case. Thus, the main innovation for both consists in the application of already available equipment (telescope, shamatha) to a new object of study (space objects, stream of consciousness) and the correct interpretation of the experimental (yogic) data obtained. So Columbus, although he reached America, thought that he sailed to India.
If you knew the answer, then why did you ask? :shrug:
“Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

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Pondera
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Re: What was the innovation of Siddhartha Gautama?

Post by Pondera »

The Buddha inclined his mind to the ending of the fermentations.

It was not something countless Buddha’s before him had not also done, however it was his innovation in this time frame.

All of the Buddha’s contemporaries were in the mud, trudging through the darkness. Without the Buddha’s innovation of inclining his mind to the deathless - there would be no dhamma - no teaching - no sangha - no freedom for the wise.

He set the wheel of the dhamma in motion - just as previous Buddha’s did. His knowledge is not mere repetition. To call it that would be a dishonest to the suffering he endured in order to reach full enlightenment.

It was not a “improvement” on an imperfect system. It was the destiny of a fully enlightened Buddha; to reach and teach the pure dhamma.
“Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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mjaviem
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Re: What was the innovation of Siddhartha Gautama?

Post by mjaviem »

I think the innovation was his specific practice of sila, samadhi and panna. He thus discovered specifically the fourth noble truth.

What's new is that he walked the path finding the way.
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Re: What was the innovation of Siddhartha Gautama?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Since Alara & Uddaka were very likely annihilationists it’s likely the Buddha too was an annihilationist seeking to end his own self existence in order to end all dukkha. His realisation was that that method only lead to a re-appearance in the formless. In other words, there was still existence and dukkha in the formless and so he abandoned that method. Next he tried to abandon desire by forceful suppression through asceticism, likely due to having realised that his previous desire to end existence ended up leading to existence (through his prior experience of striving for annihilation in the formless). He realised that didn’t work. Next he thought of the Jhana. Could that be a path to Nibbana in this very life? “Why am I afraid of that pleasure ...”. So, he practiced them up to the 4th Jhana but even these refined states were impermanent and so were dukkha. It seems upon reaching the 4th Jhana he realised that intention towards is what the problem was and so he gave up intention towards existence, having realised intention towards non-existence wasn’t the answer either, and so then realised Nibbana.

“He understands thus: ‘If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite space and to develop my mind accordingly, this would be conditioned. If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite consciousness…to the base of nothingness…to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception and to develop my mind accordingly, this would be conditioned.’ He does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being or non-being. Since he does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being or non-being, he does not cling to anything in this world.” MN 140
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But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


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Re: What was the innovation of Siddhartha Gautama?

Post by befriend »

I think They had wrong view they were trying to connect find union with God so this wrong view obstructed right view. Not sure if I'm correct.
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Re: What was the innovation of Siddhartha Gautama?

Post by justindesilva »

mjaviem wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:54 am I think the innovation was his specific practice of sila, samadhi and panna. He thus discovered specifically the fourth noble truth.

What's new is that he walked the path finding the way.
Could I say that Lord buddas innovation is arya ashtanga marga , in seek of sila, samadhi, pragna. This innovation lead beings to Nibbana or end of suffering .
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Re: What was the innovation of Siddhartha Gautama?

Post by Ratnakar »

Viachh wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:56 pm As we know, Siddhartha Gautama had two teachers Alara(Arada) Kalama and Udraka Ramaputra.
But he surpassed them.
What essentially new did Siddhartha Gautama bring into his yogic practice that allowed him to become a Buddha?
justindesilva wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:40 pm
mjaviem wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:54 am I think the innovation was his specific practice of sila, samadhi and panna. He thus discovered specifically the fourth noble truth.

What's new is that he walked the path finding the way.
Could I say that Lord buddas innovation is arya ashtanga marga , in seek of sila, samadhi, pragna. This innovation lead beings to Nibbana or end of suffering .
befriend wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:38 pm I think They had wrong view they were trying to connect find union with God so this wrong view obstructed right view. Not sure if I'm correct.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:22 pm Since Alara & Uddaka were very likely annihilationists it’s likely the Buddha too was an annihilationist seeking to end his own self existence in order to end all dukkha. His realisation was that that method only lead to a re-appearance in the formless. In other words, there was still existence and dukkha in the formless and so he abandoned that method. Next he tried to abandon desire by forceful suppression through asceticism, likely due to having realised that his previous desire to end existence ended up leading to existence (through his prior experience of striving for annihilation in the formless). He realised that didn’t work. Next he thought of the Jhana. Could that be a path to Nibbana in this very life? “Why am I afraid of that pleasure ...”. So, he practiced them up to the 4th Jhana but even these refined states were impermanent and so were dukkha. It seems upon reaching the 4th Jhana he realised that intention towards is what the problem was and so he gave up intention towards existence, having realised intention towards non-existence wasn’t the answer either, and so then realised Nibbana.

“He understands thus: ‘If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite space and to develop my mind accordingly, this would be conditioned. If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite consciousness…to the base of nothingness…to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception and to develop my mind accordingly, this would be conditioned.’ He does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being or non-being. Since he does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being or non-being, he does not cling to anything in this world.” MN 140




3 buddha's inventions are the base of physic power, noble 8 fold path and mindfulness meditation

We know that buddha indeed invented those because of the phrase "not learned Before" indicating uniqueness of those practices at that time
Sn47.31
At Sāvatthī.

“‘This is the observation of an aspect of the body.’ Such, mendicants, was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another. ‘This observation of an aspect of the body should be developed.’ … ‘This observation of an aspect of the body has been developed.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another.

‘This is the observation of an aspect of feelings.’ … ‘This observation of an aspect of feelings should be developed.’ … ‘This observation of an aspect of feelings has been developed.’ …

‘This is the observation of an aspect of the mind.’ … ‘This observation of an aspect of the mind should be developed.’ … ‘This observation of an aspect of the mind has been developed.’ …

‘This is the observation of an aspect of principles.’ … ‘This observation of an aspect of principles should be developed.’ … ‘This observation of an aspect of principles has been developed.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another.”
Sn51.9
“Mendicants: ‘This is the basis of psychic power that has immersion due to enthusiasm, and active effort.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another. ‘This basis of psychic power … should be developed.’ … ‘This basis of psychic power … has been developed.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another.

‘This is the basis of psychic power that has immersion due to energy, and active effort.’ … ‘This basis of psychic power … should be developed.’ … ‘This basis of psychic power … has been developed.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another.

‘This is the basis of psychic power that has immersion due to mental development, and active effort.’ … ‘This basis of psychic power … should be developed.’ … ‘This basis of psychic power … has been developed.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another.

‘This is the basis of psychic power that has immersion due to inquiry, and active effort.’ … ‘This basis of psychic power … should be developed.’ … ‘This basis of psychic power … has been developed.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another.”
Sn56.12
‘This is the noble truth of suffering.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in the Realized Ones regarding teachings not learned before from another. ‘This noble truth of suffering should be completely understood.’ … ‘This noble truth of suffering has been completely understood.’ …

‘This is the noble truth of the origin of suffering.’ … ‘This noble truth of the origin of suffering should be given up.’ … ‘This noble truth of the origin of suffering has been given up.’ …

‘This is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering.’ … ‘This noble truth of the cessation of suffering should be realized.’ … ‘This noble truth of the cessation of suffering has been realized.’ …

‘This is the noble truth of the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering.’ … ‘This noble truth of the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering should be developed.’ … ‘This noble truth of the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering has been developed.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in the Realized Ones regarding teachings not learned before from another.”
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