rightviewftw wrote: ↑Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:24 pm
fire and air find no footing.
tejo vāyo na
gādhati;
However you did not actually address the DN11 and an7.15 in reference to the gadha therein afaik.
Previously, I wrote that the verb
gādhati has the root
gādh, meaning to stand fast etc. I did not dispute the translation of the verse above as it is correct - PTS Pali English Dictionary definition:
Gādhati [Gādhati] [v. der. fr. gādha2] to stand fast, to be on firm ground, to have a firm footing: āpo ca paṭhavī ca tejo vāyo na gādhati 'the four elements have no footing' D i.223=S i.15; —Dhamma-Vinaye gādhati 'to stand fast in the Doctrine & Discipline' S iii.59 sq. —
https://goo.gl/dcwFtt
rightviewftw wrote: ↑Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:24 pmTwo of these Sutta AN10.58 and SN 48:44 are being disputed in this exact thread and there is obviously no consensus among the translators on the term gadha therein and translated as plunging,
Both Vens Bodhi & Sujāto are in consensus, having translated the term
ogadhā as 'culminate'. I am in agreement with them, except I prefer the literal translation, 'plunging into' - PTS Pali English Dictionary definition:
Ogadha (-- ˚) (adj.) [Sk. avagāḍha; P. form with shortened a, fr. ava + gāh, see gādha1 & gāhati] immersed, merging into, diving or plunging into. Only in two main phrases, viz. Amatogadha & Nibbānogadha diving into
https://goo.gl/hZJnf5
It is only Ven. Thānissaro who has translated this term as 'gain footing'. Thus, the question needs to be asked: is he translating the same Pali term
ogadhā or has he translated a variant of it which is linked to the verbal root
gādh, 'stand fast', perhaps found in the Thai script Pali canon? He is fluent in Thai.
rightviewftw wrote: ↑Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:24 pmas for Sn2.1 the term there is not gadha it is vighaya and it is not universally translated as plunging
Defintion of
vigayha in PTS Pali English Dictionary:
Vigayha [Vigayha] see vigāhati...Vigāhati [Vigāhati] [vi+gāhati] to plunge into, to enter S i.180 (ger. vigāhiya); J v.381 (°gāhisuṃ, aor.); Mhvs 19, 29 (here as °gāhetvā). The ger. is also vigayha at Sn 2, 825; cp. Nd1 163 (=ogayha pavisitvā).
https://goo.gl/uaoo2f
rightviewftw wrote: ↑Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:24 pmAccording to the Commentary to AN 8.83 (which covers the first eight of the ten questions given here), "all phenomena" (sabbe dhamma) here means the five aggregates.
A difference: you are relying on commentary from AN 8.83 to try to understand AN 10.58, whereas I am using another sutta SN 48:44 to lend light to the meaning of AN 10.58.
To my understanding, the commentarial exposition of
sabbe dhammā as five aggregates does not clarify the phrase
amatogadhā sabbe dhammā. 'The five aggregates culminate (plunge into) in the Deathless' does not have any useful meaning, esp. as an answer/teaching for other sectarians. I was somewhat dismissive of commentarial explanations in my previous post. However, if this is the best commentarial explanation offered for this phrase, it would only confirm my cynicism.
Although this is a short sutta, it appears the commentary has not helped you understand it to your satisfaction (hence, your posting it as a topic).
rightviewftw wrote: ↑Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:24 pmWhile there is an overlap in meaning of Deathless and Nibbana when both are taken as destruction of craving, Nibbana with residue refers in particular to the state of an Arahant and deathless doesn't.
+++
I made a mistake saying both refer to the destruction of craving, what i meant was destruction of cankers.
But the destruction of craving and the destruction of cankers are realized simultaneously.
Khīnāsava, 'cankers destroyed', is a designation for an Arahat, one who is free of all craving. The
Anāgāmī is free of
kāmāsava and the
Arahat is free of
kāmāsava, bhavāsava & āvijjāsava.
rightviewftw wrote: ↑Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:24 pm“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless.
Agree
rightviewftw wrote: ↑Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:24 pmThe easiest way to show that it is wrong to equate Deathless with "Nibbana with residue" is pointing out that Sariputta and Moggalanna attained Deathless prior to becoming Arahants
You've quoted above that the Deathless is the destruction of lust, hatred and delusion, yet you contradict this by saying that Vens Sāriputta & Moggallāna attained the Deathless prior to becoming Arahants?