When was Gotama a sotapanna?

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Dhammanando
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Re: When was Gotama a sotapanna?

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:20 am So. The main ingredient of becoming Sotapanna is destroying ditthi asava.
I would prefer to say that it's the relevant ingredient, or the ingredient that one focuses on, if one happens to be describing stream-entry in relation to the four-āsava scheme.
SarathW wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:20 amWhat is the significance of other two?
You mean the other two fetters? In the case of misapprehension of habitually undertaken and vowed observances (sīlabbataparāmāsa), this is regarded as a form of wrong view and so its destruction would be included in the destruction of diṭṭhi āsava.

In the case of doubt (vicikicchā), its destruction isn't mentioned when one is describing stream-entry in relation to the four āsavas.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
SarathW
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Re: When was Gotama a sotapanna?

Post by SarathW »

Is there any explicit mention of this connection in the suttas?
In the Sutta they literal seven lives.
Seven life is so small in comparison to our Samsara.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Circle5
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Re: When was Gotama a sotapanna?

Post by Circle5 »

We see in the suttas that people reacted differently when exposed to the higher dhamma. Those that were normal people attained only stream entry when listening and contemplating it, those that were already hardcore ascetics attained higher stages. The first step, that of stream entry, only requires intellectual understanding in order to acomplish, something almost anybody is capable of (even a serial killer did it in the suttas). Then, destruction of craving is all that is left to do. In the case of people who were already hardcore ascetics, they had already done this part and only lacked the intellectual understanding regarding no-self, due to not being exposed to the higher dhamma discovered by the Buddha.
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Re: When was Gotama a sotapanna?

Post by User1249x »

Circle5 wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:49 am We see in the suttas that people reacted differently when exposed to the higher dhamma. Those that were normal people attained only stream entry when listening and contemplating it, those that were already hardcore ascetics attained higher stages. The first step, that of stream entry, only requires intellectual understanding in order to acomplish, something almost anybody is capable of (even a serial killer did it in the suttas). Then, destruction of craving is all that is left to do. In the case of people who were already hardcore ascetics, they had already done this part and only lacked the intellectual understanding regarding no-self, due to not being exposed to the higher dhamma discovered by the Buddha.
Actually stream entry requires attaining the Deathless, penetrating to the Sorrowless (asoka) state and witnessing the cessation of sankhara. Faith-Follower and Dhamma-Followers on other hand;
At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."
Intellectual understanding does not go beyond conviction;
There are five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Which five? Conviction, liking, unbroken tradition, reasoning by analogy, & an agreement through pondering views. These are the five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Now some things are firmly held in conviction and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not firmly held in conviction, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. Some things are well-liked... truly an unbroken tradition... well-reasoned... Some things are well-pondered and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not well-pondered, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. In these cases it isn't proper for a knowledgeable person who safeguards the truth to come to a definite conclusion, 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless."
2600htz
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Re: When was Gotama a sotapanna?

Post by 2600htz »

Hello:

I think he was technically a sotapanna for like a second.
Him being a sotapanna in a previous life makes no sense, since a buddha awakens to the path, discovers the path.

Regards.
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Circle5
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Re: When was Gotama a sotapanna?

Post by Circle5 »

Actually stream entry requires attaining the Deathless, penetrating to the Sorrowless (asoka) state and witnessing the cessation of sankhara. Faith-Follower and Dhamma-Followers on other hand
In 10k pages of nikayas, have you seen a single case where more than contemplation of higher dhamma was required ? Have you noticed a case in the suttas where there was contemplation of higher dhamma + something else, and not just contemplation of higher dhamma alone ? Have you noticed a case where it took longer than a couple of days to achieve ? If I remember corectly, it was just one case where a guy took like a month to achieve it, and he was a pretty slow guy from the warior caste.

Even though it might seem easy giving these conditions, it's actually something very hard these days, proven by the fact that very few people bother to read the nikayas and the higher dhamma section of it cause it's a way too long - thousands of pages of difficult material. Most get stuck into reading some random suttas in random order, suttas that are usually not part of the higher dhamma section, and doing some breathing exercise invented by a 19th century guy that has nothing to do with teachings of the historical buddha.
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Re: When was Gotama a sotapanna?

Post by User1249x »

Circle5 wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:12 pm
Actually stream entry requires attaining the Deathless, penetrating to the Sorrowless (asoka) state and witnessing the cessation of sankhara. Faith-Follower and Dhamma-Followers on other hand
In 10k pages of nikayas, have you seen a single case where more than contemplation of higher dhamma was required ? Have you noticed a case in the suttas where there was contemplation of higher dhamma + something else, and not just contemplation of higher dhamma alone ? Have you noticed a case where it took longer than a couple of days to achieve ? If I remember corectly, it was just one case where a guy took like a month to achieve it, and he was a pretty slow guy from the warior caste.

Even though it might seem easy giving these conditions, it's actually something very hard these days, proven by the fact that very few people bother to read the nikayas and the higher dhamma section of it cause it's a way too long - thousands of pages of difficult material. Most get stuck into reading some random suttas in random order, suttas that are usually not part of the higher dhamma section, and doing some breathing exercise invented by a 19th century guy that has nothing to do with teachings of the historical buddha.
7. “There is a path, Ānanda, a way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters; that anyone, without relying on that path, on that way, shall know or see or abandon the five lower fetters—this is not possible.
..
“And what, Ānanda, is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters? ... He turns his mind away from those states [436] and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints.
Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye
...
Then Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Bright are your faculties, my friend; pure your complexion, and clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"

"Yes, my friend, I have attained the Deathless. "
..
Then to Moggallana the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.

Even if just this is the Dhamma,
you have penetrated
to the Sorrowless (asoka) State
unseen, overlooked (by us)
for many myriads of aeons.

— Mv.I.23.5
Deathless is attained by means of 8FNP;
This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.”
8FNP implies cessation of sankhara;
The way leading to the cessation of formations is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.
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Circle5
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Re: When was Gotama a sotapanna?

Post by Circle5 »

I think you are into some confusion. Stream entry means just the first step of the noble 8thfold path, which is Right View. A person who has completed the 8th fold path is called an arahant.

You do not complete the noble 8thfold path to become a stream enterer. "Stream enterer" means one who "has entered the stream", and the stream is the noble 8th fold path. I know for some people there is a confusion between stream entry and arahantship but they are different things.
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