Why don't we follow Noble Tenfold Path?

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StormBorn
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Re: Why don't we follow Noble Tenfold Path?

Post by StormBorn »

form wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:33 pm The higher the number, the more likely it is a product of more addition and editing. This is a theory i read from some scholar book. Which book i dun remember now. The more theoretical a dhamma is presented the less practical it will be, this is my view.
It appears you are correct actually. :smile:

AN 10.103 talks about ten factors (8FP + Right Knowledge and Right Release). But the Chinese parallel only talks about eight factors (8FP).

Credit: Ven. Hidden One :smile:
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”
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rightviewftw
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Re: Why don't we follow Noble Tenfold Path?

Post by rightviewftw »

bhikkhus, the path of the disciple in higher training possesses eight factors, the arahant possesses ten factors.
https://www.wisdompubs.org/book/middle- ... saka-sutta
probably that's why
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
justindesilva
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Re: Why don't we follow Noble Tenfold Path?

Post by justindesilva »

SarathW wrote: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:20 am Why don't we follow Noble Tenfold Path?
I just wonder why we instruct people to follow the Noble Eightfold Path, not the NTP?
For a lay buddhist the ariya ashtanga marga or eight fold noble path is more than enough. The other further two noble paths being samma gnana and samma vimutthi after the stage of arhat is almost automatically reached and hence is not important to a layman even at sovan stage.
SarathW
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Re: Why don't we follow Noble Tenfold Path?

Post by SarathW »

It appears you are correct actually. :smile:

AN 10.103 talks about ten factors (8FP + Right Knowledge and Right Release). But the Chinese parallel only talks about eight factors (8FP).
There is no ground to reject AN 10.103 because it is different to Chinese parallel.
Is it possible it was dropped by the Chinese parallel.
In my opinion Right Knowledge and Right Release is a valid point.
As I said before Noble Eightfold Path is the Magga and the Right Knowledge and Right release is the Phala.
I could not find anyware in Sutta that tenfold factors as Magga.
Are Magga and Phala late addition too?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Dhammanando
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Re: Why don't we follow Noble Tenfold Path?

Post by Dhammanando »

BKh wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:24 am But I would still be curious if the term "tenfold path" as such is found in the Suttas. I don't believe that it is.
Not in the suttas, but just once in the commentaries we find the eightfold path + right knowledge and right liberation referred to as the "tenfold path" (dasaṅgikamagga). It's in the commentary to the Sammādiṭṭhi Sutta (the AN sutta of this name, AN. ii. 76-7).

I think the usual sutta term is the "ten rightnesses" or "tenfold righteous course", though there are lots of others. The AN's Book of the Tens has over fifty basic ways of referring to the ten factors, or over 200 if one counts all the peyyālas. For example...
Rightnesses, right courses (sammatta).

Sweet seeds (ucchubīja).

Eroders [of the unwholesome] (nijjara).

Noble washing (ariya dhovana).

Noble purgative (ariya virecana).

Noble emetic (ariya vamana).

Ejecting dhammas (niddhamanīya dhamma).

Qualities of one beyond training (asekhiya dhamma).

The Dhamma (dhamma).

The benefit/welfare/goal (attha).

The far shore (pārima tīra).

The good (sādhu).

The noble Dhamma (ariya dhamma).

The wholesome (kusala).

The taintless Dhamma (anāsava dhamma).

The blameless Dhamma (anavajja dhamma).

The non-tormenting Dhamma (atapanīya dhamma).

The Dhamma that leads to dismantling (ācayagāmī dhamma).

The Dhamma with happiness as its outcome (sukhudraya dhamma).

The Dhamma that ripens in happiness (sukhavipāka dhamma).

The noble path (ariyamagga).

The bright path (sukkamagga).

The good Dhamma (saddhamma).

The Dhamma of a good person (sappurisadhamma).

The Dhamma to be aroused (uppādetabba dhamma).

The Dhamma to be pursued (āsevitabba dhamma).

The Dhamma to be developed (bhāvetabba dhamma).

The Dhamma to be made much of (bahulīkātabba dhamma).

The Dhamma to be recollected (anussaritabba dhamma).

The Dhamma to be realized (sacchikātabba dhamma).

The ten things to be developed …

… for direct knowledge of lust (rāgassa abhiññāya).
… for full understanding of lust (rāgassa pariññāya).
… for the utter destruction of lust (rāgassa parikkhayāya).
… for the abandoning of lust (rāgassa pahānāya).
… for the destruction of lust (rāgassa khayāya).
… for the vanishing of lust (rāgassa vayāya).
… for the fading away of lust (rāgassa virāgāya).
… for the cessation of lust (rāgassa nirodhāya).
… for the giving up of lust (rāgassa cāgāya).
… for the relinquishment of lust (rāgassa paṭinissaggāya).

Repeat the list replacing ‘lust’ with …

hatred (dosa).
delusion (moha).
anger (kodha).
hostility (upanāha).
denigration (makkha).
insolence (paḷāsa).
envy (issā).
miserliness (macchariya).
deceitfulness (māyā).
craftiness (sāṭheyya).
obstinacy (thambha).
vehemence (sārambha).
conceit (māna).
arrogance (atimāna).
intoxication (mada).
heedlessness (pamāda).

The ten things that are purified and cleansed nowhere else but in the discipline of the Sugata (dasa dhammā parisuddhā pariyodātā nāññatra sugatavinayā).

The ten things that when unarisen arise nowhere else but in the discipline of the Sugata (dasa dhammā anuppannā uppajjanti nāññatra sugatavinayā).

The ten things that are of great fruit and benefit nowhere else but in the discipline of the Sugata (dasa dhammā mahapphalā mahānisaṃsā nāññatra sugatavinayā).

The ten things that culminate in the removal of lust, hatred, and delusion nowhere else but in the discipline of the Sugata (dasa dhammā rāgavinayapariyosānā honti dosavinayapariyosānā honti mohavinayapariyosānā honti nāññatra sugatavinayā).

The ten things that lead exclusively to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to nibbāna, nowhere else but in the discipline of the Sugata (dasa dhammā ekantanibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattanti nāññatra sugatavinayā).

The ten things that when unarisen arise and are developed and cultivated nowhere else but in the discipline of the Sugata (dasa dhammā bhāvitā bahulīkatā anuppannā uppajjanti nāññatra sugatavinayā).

The ten things that developed and cultivated are of great fruit and benefit nowhere else but in the discipline of the Sugata. (dasa dhammā bhāvitā bahulīkatā mahapphalā honti mahānisaṃsā nāññatra sugatavinayā).

The ten things that developed and cultivated culminate in the removal of lust, hatred, and delusion nowhere else but in the discipline of the Sugata (dasa dhammā bhāvitā bahulīkatā rāgavinayapariyosānā honti dosavinayapariyosānā honti mohavinayapariyosānā honti nāññatra sugatavinayā).

The ten things that developed and cultivated lead exclusively to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to nibbāna, nowhere else but in the discipline of the Sugata (dasa dhammā bhāvitā bahulīkatā ekantanibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattanti nāññatra sugatavinayā).
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
form
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Re: Why don't we follow Noble Tenfold Path?

Post by form »

StormBorn wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:00 pm
form wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:33 pm The higher the number, the more likely it is a product of more addition and editing. This is a theory i read from some scholar book. Which book i dun remember now. The more theoretical a dhamma is presented the less practical it will be, this is my view.
It appears you are correct actually. :smile:

AN 10.103 talks about ten factors (8FP + Right Knowledge and Right Release). But the Chinese parallel only talks about eight factors (8FP).

Credit: Ven. Hidden One :smile:
It could be an effort to put together n organise info on related topics from different suttas. To me looking it from surface, right knowledge and right release could fall into right view (what bhikkhu bodhi called "the compass".
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StormBorn
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Re: Why don't we follow Noble Tenfold Path?

Post by StormBorn »

SarathW wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:54 am
It appears you are correct actually. :smile:

AN 10.103 talks about ten factors (8FP + Right Knowledge and Right Release). But the Chinese parallel only talks about eight factors (8FP).
There is no ground to reject AN 10.103 because it is different to Chinese parallel.
Seriously? This is what happened when you read DW straight after the bed :coffee: :smile:
SarathW wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:54 am Is it possible it was dropped by the Chinese parallel.
You meant in the same way Vajjiputtakas/Mahāsaṅghikas dropped some? :tongue:
Another crucial accusation is that the Vajjiputtakas/Mahāsaṅghikas revised the ancient texts, rejecting the Parivāra, the six books of the Abhidhamma, the Paṭisambhidā, the Niddesa, some of the Jātakas, and some of the verses, and went on to compose others. These works are all found
in the Pali canon. Without exception, modern scholars are agreed that these works are late and are not buddhavacana. Thus the Mahāsaṅghikas
may rightly claim to be the forerunners of an accurate historical-critical approach to Buddhist texts.

- Sects & Sectarianism, p. 51
SarathW wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:54 am Are Magga and Phala late addition too?
:x :rolleye:
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”
SarathW
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Re: Why don't we follow Noble Tenfold Path?

Post by SarathW »

Seriously? This is what happened when you read DW straight after the bed :coffee: :smile:
I do not regret it. :tongue:
Ven. Dhammanando gave a very clear explanation.
Perhaps Calling it Noble Tenfold Path could be a late addition.
So in your opinion, the Right Knowledge and Right Release is a late addition?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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StormBorn
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Re: Why don't we follow Noble Tenfold Path?

Post by StormBorn »

SarathW wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:22 pm
Seriously? This is what happened when you read DW straight after the bed :coffee: :smile:
I do not regret it. :tongue:
Ven. Dhammanando gave a very clear explanation.
Perhaps Calling it Noble Tenfold Path could be a late addition.
So in your opinion, the Right Knowledge and Right Release is a late addition?
Having a whole heap of fancy words and lists in 100s for the same thing generally a sign of lateness. Early Buddhism is mostly clear, simple, and practical rather than an intellectual proliferation :smile: .

The content that comes under the Right Knowledge and Right Release are authentic. But the coining of the term seems late.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”
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