Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

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DooDoot
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

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StormBorn wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:15 am "The Path is born within the one who seeks it." - Vinaya :smile:
The sutta you quoted (DN 6) lists the attainments of the four enlightened persons in respect to the 10 fetters. Based on these definitions of attainment, it seems the stream-enterer & once-returner still have minds that can return to sensuality, which gives the impression they have not completed the purity of jhana; because it seems it is the non-sensual happiness of jhana and the equanimity and dispassion towards this jhanic happiness that largely uproots the inclination towards sensual desire (achieved by the non-returner & arahant). I recall there is a sutta (maybe MN 75 but possibly another) where the Buddha says until his mind mastered jhana it could still return to thoughts of sensuality. To say a stream-enterer has attained the 4th jhana seems to not conform with the characteristics of each of the 10 fetters and particularly the ending of sensual desire.
This was said by the Lord…

Bhikkhus, one bound by the bond of sensual desire and by the bond of being is a returner, one who comes back to this state. One freed from the bond of sensual desire but still bound by the bond of being is a non-returner, one who does not come back to this state. One freed from the bond of sensual desire and freed from the bond of being is an arahant, one in whom the taints are destroyed.

Fettered by both these bonds—
The sensual bond and the bond of being—
Living beings continue in saṃsāra,
Journeying on to birth and death.

Those who abandon sensual desires
But have not reached the taints’ destruction,
Fettered by the bondage of being,
Are declared to be non-returners.

But those who have cut off doubts,
Destroyed conceit and renewal of being,
Who reach the taints’ full destruction,
Though in the world, have gone beyond.

https://suttacentral.net/iti96/en/ireland
Some time later—having truly understood the origin, ending, gratification, drawback, and escape of sensual pleasures, and having given up craving and dispelled passion for sensual pleasures—I live rid of thirst, my mind peaceful inside.

I see other sentient beings who are not free from sensual pleasures being consumed by craving for sensual pleasures, burning with passion for sensual pleasures, indulging in sensual pleasures.

I don’t envy them, nor do I hope to enjoy that. Why is that? Because there is a satisfaction that is apart from sensual pleasures and unskillful qualities, which even achieves the level of heavenly pleasure. Enjoying that satisfaction, I don’t envy what is inferior, nor do I hope to enjoy it.

https://suttacentral.net/mn75/en/sujato
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

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Zom wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:56 pm 1) Stream-winners and once-returners haven't mastered samadhi yet.
2) None of them ever get rebirth in rupa-loka realm (to be born there you must have at least 1st jhana).
Kindly provide the reference/s for these. Thanks.
DooDoot wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:25 am The sutta you quoted lists the attainments of the four enlightened persons in respect to the 10 fetters. The stream-enterer & once-returner still have minds that can return to sensuality, which obviously means they have not completed the purity of jhana (because it seems it is the non-sensual happiness of jhana that largely uproots sensual desire. I recall there is a sutta where the Buddha says until his mind mastered jhana it could still return to thoughts of sensuality). To say a stream-enterer has attained the 4th jhana seems not logical in respect to the characteristics of each of the 10 fetters (and the ending of sensual desire).
It seems you are equating jhanas which are temporary to the permanent removal of 10 fetters. According to your theory, Āḷāra Kālāma's incident (see DN 16) is impossible as how a common worldling and not even a Buddhist can achieve such a feat!
Pukkusa spoke to The Buddha, saying: “Venerable sir, one time, Āḷāra Kālāma journeying, sat down by the wayside of the highway at a foot of a tree to pass the heat of the day. That time five hundred carts passed by him, one by one. And then, a certain man approached and asked him whether he saw a great number of carts that passed or heard the noise, where Āḷāra Kālāma answered in negative. Then that man asked him whether he slept or unconscious, where Āḷāra Kālāma answered in negative. Then that man said: 'Then, sir, while conscious and awake you still did not see the great number of carts, even five hundred carts, that passed you by one after another, nor heard the noise? Why, sir, your very robe is covered with their dust!' And Āḷāra Kālāma replied: 'So it is, friend.' And to that man, came the thought: 'It is marvellous and most wonderful indeed, the state of calmness (santena) wherein abide those who have gone forth from the world!' And there arose in him great faith in Āḷāra Kālāma, and he went his way.”

Then The Buddha said: “Pukkusa, now what do you think? What is more difficult to do, more difficult to meet with, that a man who conscious and awake not see a great number of carts, nor hear the noise, or in a heavy rain, with thunder and lightning, neither see it nor hear the noise? One time, I was staying in a barn at Ātumā. At that time there was a heavy rain, with thunder and lightning. And two farmers who were brothers were killed close to the barn, together with four oxen, and a great crowd came forth from Ātumā to the spot where they were killed. Now at that time, I had come out of the barn and was walking up and down in thought before the door. And a certain man from the great crowd approached me. I asked him: 'Why, friend, has this great crowd gathered together?' He answered: 'Just now there was a heavy rain . . . together with four oxen. Due to that, the great crowd has gathered. But where were you?' 'I was here, friend.' And then that man asked me whether I neither saw it nor heard the noise, where I answered in positive. Then that man asked me whether I slept or unconscious, where I answered in negative. Then that man said: 'Then, while conscious and awake, in the midst of a heavy rain, with thunder rolling, lightning flashing, you neither saw it nor heard the noise?' And I replied: 'So it is, friend.'” And to that man, came the thought: 'It is marvellous and most wonderful indeed, the state of calmness wherein abide those who have gone forth from the world!' And there arose in him great faith in me, and he respectfully saluted me, and keeping his right side towards me, he went his way.”
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DooDoot
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

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StormBorn wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:51 am...is impossible as how a common worldling and not even a Buddhist can achieve such a feat!
What evidence is there Āḷāra Kālāma (who may have not been free from sakkaya ditthi) was not free from sensual desire? :shrug:
This was said by the Lord…

Those who abandon sensual desires
But have not reached the taints’ destruction,
Fettered by the bondage of being,
Are declared to be non-returners.

https://suttacentral.net/iti96/en/ireland
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

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Kindly provide the reference/s for these. Thanks.
As for suttas, need detailed googling, but have no time for that at the moment (except that famous Autumn sutta which clearly says that stream-entry comes first, jhana - later). You can also get more information from here https://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha267.htm
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

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DooDoot wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:55 am
StormBorn wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:51 am...is impossible as how a common worldling and not even a Buddhist can achieve such a feat!
What evidence is there Āḷāra Kālāma (who may have not been free from sakkaya ditthi) was not free from sensual desire? :shrug:
This was said by the Lord…

Those who abandon sensual desires
But have not reached the taints’ destruction,
Fettered by the bondage of being,
Are declared to be non-returners.

https://suttacentral.net/iti96/en/ireland
Is it Free from the sensual desire and abandoning greed is not the same ??
You always gain by giving
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

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Zom wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:32 pm
Kindly provide the reference/s for these. Thanks.
As for suttas, need detailed googling, but have no time for that at the moment (except that famous Autumn sutta which clearly says that stream-entry comes first, jhana - later).
Well, according to that sutta stream-entry comes first before everything, including sila. Or the whole 8FP, vipassanaa? :jumping:

"Afterwards they get rid of two things: desire and aversion." refers to becoming a non-returner. So should we take it as there's no once-returner?

Btw, the sutta has two parallels in Katavatthu only.
Zom wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:32 pmYou can also get more information from here https://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha267.htm
Thank you. Will read it thoroughly when have time :smile:
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

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Well, according to that sutta stream-entry comes first before everything, including sila.
In most cases, as seen from the suttas, yes, it comes before one enters the Path. This is why this level is called "Stream ENTRY", where that very stream is the Noble Eightfold Path. You enter the path by rectifiyng views (1st factor). And from there you go on, start developing all other factors, one by one, gradually, to the highest degree.
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

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Well, according to that sutta stream-entry comes first before everything, including sila. Or the whole 8FP, vipassanaa? :jumping:
This statement requires further clarification otherwise you are slandering the Buddha.
There are two facets of Noble Eightfold Path. Lokiya and lokuttara.
People follow the Eightfold Path well before stream entry. Perhaps Nobles may be following it to a higher degree.
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

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DooDoot wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:55 am
StormBorn wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:51 am...is impossible as how a common worldling and not even a Buddhist can achieve such a feat!
What evidence is there Āḷāra Kālāma (who may have not been free from sakkaya ditthi) was not free from sensual desire? :shrug:
You are talking about the possibility of Āḷāra Kālāma beeing an ariya, right?
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

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StormBorn wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:52 amYou are talking about the possibility of Āḷāra Kālāma beeing an ariya, right?
Not necessarily. My impression is "ariya" in Buddhism accords with non-becoming & anatta. However, there are mystics in other religions who are free from sensual desire. Iti 99, which I quoted, appears to define a non-returner as never returning to sensuality. While a Buddhist ariya is free from sakkaya ditthi (self belief), it appears mystics in other religions can have self-belief but are free from sensual desire. Sotapanna and once-returner may be free from self-belief but they are not free from the arising of self-desire. In short, as I said, jhana is something that removes sensual desire because the mind of the jhana master is habituated to a greater type of pleasure (than sensual pleasure). Therefore, my view is if the sotapanna has mastered jhana, they would be free from the arising of sensual desire.
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

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DooDoot wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:39 amHowever, there are mystics in other religions who are free from sensual desire.
Temporary yes. Or do you mean if one is able to enter jhāna, he is forever freed from sensual desire? If this is the case, then I think it can be easily refuted: Buddha said that in the past he was reborn as a Brahma several times (i.e. had jhāna), but in his last life, as we know, he had a son, i.e. had sensual desire.
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

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DooDoot wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:27 amJhāna and the Attainment of Stream-entry by Bhikkhu Bodhi seems well researched.
He may have researched it to some depth, but to me it seems he's bending the suttas to suite his view. See below (perhaps you might see otherwise):
It is noteworthy that the texts on the realization of stream-entry make no mention of any prior accomplishment in jhāna as a prerequisite for reaching the path. In fact, several texts show the breakthrough to stream-entry as occurring to someone without any prior meditative experience, simply by listening to the Buddha or an enlightened monk give a discourse on the Dhamma.[8]

“No mention” doesn’t mean explicit “no prior jhāna” either. In fact, nothing needed as prerequisites including listening. According to Auto and the AN 3.94 he quoted, even the Hitler would have become a sotapanna just like that!
It is noteworthy that this passage makes no mention of jhāna. While prior experience of jhāna would no doubt help to make the mind a more fit instrument for insight, it is surely significant that jhāna is not mentioned either as an accompaniment of the "entry upon the fixed course of rightness" or as a prerequisite for it.
Again!
It might be objected that several other passages on the two candidates for stream-entry implicitly include the jhānas among their meditative equipment. The details of these passages need not concern us here. What is of interest to us is that they assign to both the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower the five spiritual faculties: faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom.[10] The Indriya-saṃyutta states that the faculty of concentration "is to be seen among the four jhānas,"[11] and a definition of the concentration faculty includes the formula for the jhānas.[12] Thus, if we argue deductively from these ascriptions and definitions, it would seem to follow as a matter of logic that both the Dhamma-follower and the faith-follower possess the jhānas. More broadly, since these faculties and powers belong to all noble disciples, not to monks alone, this might be held up as proof that all noble disciples, monks and lay followers, invariably possess the jhānas.
Yes, Indriya-saṃyutta states that the faculty of concentration which “is to be seen among the four jhānas” is among the meditative equipment of candidates for stream-entry. Eh … well ...
Such a conclusion would follow if we adopt a literal and deductive approach to the interpretation of the texts, but it is questionable whether such a hermeneutic is always appropriate when dealing with the formulaic definitions employed so often by the Nikāyas. To extract the intended meaning from such schematic definition, we require greater sensitivity to context, sensitivity guided by acquaintance with a wide assortment of relevant texts. Further, if we do opt for the literalist approach, then, since the passage simply inserts the formula for the four jhānas without qualification into the definition of the concentration faculty, we would have to conclude that all noble disciples, monks and lay followers alike, possess all four jhānas, not just one. Even more, they would have to possess the four jhānas already as faith-followers and Dhamma-followers, at the very entry to the path. This, however, seems too generous, and indicates that we need to be cautious in interpreting such formulaic definitions. In the case presently being considered, I would regard the use of the jhāna formula here as a way of showing the most eminent type of concentration to be developed by the noble disciple. I would not take it as a rigid pronouncement that all noble disciples actually possess all four jhānas, or even one of them.
Yet, “extracting the intended meaning” was a speciality of the likes of Buddhaghosa. However, let’s try it with great sensitivity:
Four jhānas > One jhāna > No jhāna > No etc.
But there is more to be said. When we attend closely to these texts, we see that a degree of flexibility is already built into them. In the analysis of the faculties at SN 48:9-10/V 197-98, the first sutta offers an alternative definition of the faculty of concentration that does not mention the four jhānas, while the following sutta gives both definitions conjointly. The alternative version runs thus: "And what, monks, is the faculty of concentration? Here, monks, a noble disciple gains concentration, gains one-pointedness of mind, having made release the object. This is called the faculty of concentration."[13]
Yep! The degree of built-in flexibility to bend is 100%: The word “one-pointedness” =/= the word “jhāna”. Proven!
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

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Zom wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:46 pm
Well, according to that sutta stream-entry comes first before everything, including sila.
In most cases, as seen from the suttas, yes, it comes before one enters the Path. This is why this level is called "Stream ENTRY", where that very stream is the Noble Eightfold Path. You enter the path by rectifiyng views (1st factor). And from there you go on, start developing all other factors, one by one, gradually, to the highest degree.
5 ascetics first got the true knowledge (vijjā) of the "8FP" by the Buddha, afterwords they realised the Dhamma. Only after that, they were walking on the "N8FP".
SarathW wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:47 pm
Well, according to that sutta stream-entry comes first before everything, including sila. Or the whole 8FP, vipassanaa? :jumping:
This statement requires further clarification otherwise you are slandering the Buddha.
You should put the question to Auto, not me.
SarathW wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:47 pm There are two facets of Noble Eightfold Path. Lokiya and lokuttara.
People follow the Eightfold Path well before stream entry. Perhaps Nobles may be following it to a higher degree.
That's my view also.
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

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This statement requires further clarification otherwise you are slandering the Buddha.
There are two facets of Noble Eightfold Path. Lokiya and lokuttara.
Lokiya and lokuttara Eightfold Path is a latter invention. Pali version of MN 117 where such teaching is placed is corrupted. Ven. Analayo did a nice job to show that.
People follow the Eightfold Path well before stream entry. Perhaps Nobles may be following it to a higher degree.
Well, they follow some aspects of the path, but not the Path in its entirety. For example, Christian teaching also coincides here or there with the Noble Eightfold Path factors - but can we say Christians follow it too? Depends on how to look at that. In some way yes, in some way no.
He may have researched it to some depth, but to me it seems he's bending the suttas to suite his view. See below
Okay. Please show any canonical case where a stream-winner or once-returner had jhana. The fact is, there is none. All such persons never born in jhanic realms after death (rupaloka / arupaloka). Only non-returners. And only non-returners (and buddhas/arahants, ofc), as seen from suttas, have jhana.
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Re: Why right knowledge and right release only for Arahant?

Post by Volo »

Zom wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:33 am Lokiya and lokuttara Eightfold Path is a latter invention. Pali version of MN 117 where such teaching is placed is corrupted. Ven. Analayo did a nice job to show that.
As I understood, one Samyukta āgama sutta also mentions supramundane and mundane path factors (although it is not a parallel to MN117). I wouldn't be too fast in rejecting mundane/supramundane path.
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