Sammāñāṇassa and Vijjā

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
sentinel
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Sammāñāṇassa and Vijjā

Post by sentinel »

Sammāñāṇassa is right knowledge ,
what about Vijjā ?
Are both different ?
You always gain by giving
User avatar
StormBorn
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:31 pm

Re: Sammāñāṇassa and Vijjā

Post by StormBorn »

James Tan wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:09 am Sammāñāṇassa is right knowledge ,
what about Vijjā ?
Are both different ?
Both same

If you read DN 2 (Sāmaññaphala Sutta), you can see, all the outcomes after the 4th jhana stated as ñāṇas including the final "knowledge of the destruction of the mental taints" (āsavakkhayañāṇa).

Credit: To the venerable who doesn't want his name to be advertised :smile: :namaste:
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”
sentinel
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Sammāñāṇassa and Vijjā

Post by sentinel »

StormBorn wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:49 pm
James Tan wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:09 am Sammāñāṇassa is right knowledge ,
what about Vijjā ?
Are both different ?
Both same

If you read DN 2 (Sāmaññaphala Sutta), you can see, all the outcomes after the 4th jhana stated as ñāṇas including the final "knowledge of the destruction of the mental taints" (āsavakkhayañāṇa).

Credit: To the venerable who doesn't want his name to be advertised :smile: :namaste:
Thanks storm and anonymous venerable .

Further to my question I would like to know the difference between the Vijjā (true knowledge) and
sammāñāṇaṃ (right knowledge) as described in the below suttas ?




https://suttacentral.net/sn45.1/en/bodhi

Vijjā ca kho, bhikkhave, pubbaṅgamā kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ samāpattiyā, anvadeva hirottappaṃ. Vijjāgatassa, bhikkhave, viddasuno sammādiṭṭhi pahoti; sammādiṭṭhissa sammāsaṅkappo pahoti; sammāsaṅkappassa sammāvācā pahoti; sammāvācassa sammākammanto pahoti; sammākammantassa sammāājīvo pahoti; sammāājīvassa sammāvāyāmo pahoti; sammāvāyāmassa sammāsati pahoti; sammāsatissa sammāsamādhi pahotī”ti.

“Bhikkhus, true knowledge is the forerunner in the entry upon wholesome states, with a sense of shame and fear of wrongdoing following along. For a wise person who has arrived at true knowledge, right view springs up. For one of right view, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up.”



https://suttacentral.net/an10.105/pli/ms

Vijjā, bhikkhave, pubbaṅgamā kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ samāpattiyā, anvadeva hirottappaṃ. Vijjāgatassa, bhikkhave, viddasuno sammādiṭṭhi pahoti, sammādiṭṭhikassa sammāsaṅkappo pahoti, sammāsaṅkappassa sammāvācā pahoti, sammāvācassa sammākammanto pahoti, sammākammantassa sammāājīvo pahoti, sammāājīvassa sammāvāyāmo pahoti, sammāvāyāmassa sammāsati pahoti, sammāsatissa sammāsamādhi pahoti, sammāsamādhissa sammāñāṇaṃ pahoti, sammāñāṇissa sammāvimutti pahotī”ti.

Knowledge precedes the attainment of skillful qualities, with conscience and prudence following along. A sage, firm in knowledge, gives rise to right view. Right view gives rise to right thought. Right thought gives rise to right speech. Right speech gives rise to right action. Right action gives rise to right livelihood. Right livelihood gives rise to right effort. Right effort gives rise to right mindfulness. Right mindfulness gives rise to right immersion. Right immersion gives rise to right knowledge. Right knowledge gives rise to right freedom.”
You always gain by giving
User avatar
StormBorn
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:31 pm

Re: Sammāñāṇassa and Vijjā

Post by StormBorn »

As evident from the sutta itself, the vijjā of SN 45.1 is referring to “a knowledge” as opposed to the “ignorance” (avijjā) of it. This knowledge is the knowledge of right & wrong (kusala & akusala) and the Path. To follow the Path, first, the knowledge of it is required. That’s why the Buddha first revealed the knowledge of the Path to the world.

Similar to the post here, AN 10.105 has no parallel too. This further adds evidence that sammāñāṇa and sammāvimutti are a later development, or at least something that the early Buddhists not much worried about. However, considering sammāñāṇa coming after sammāsamādhi, with some help from DN 2, we can conclude ñāṇas as referring to abhiññā, ñāṇa-dassana & āsavakkhaya. Hence, in the two references you quoted, vijjā is a basic knowledge, and ñāṇa is a result of a mind purified by jhānas.

However, regard to the Enlightenment of the Bodhisatta Vipassī, vijjā used in SN 12.4 as synonyms for ñāṇa and paññā also.
“‘Cessation, cessation’—thus, bhikkhus, in regard to things unheard before there arose in the Bodhisatta Vipassī vision, knowledge, wisdom, true knowledge, and light.”
cakkhuṃ udapādi, ñāṇaṃ udapādi, paññā udapādi, vijjā udapādi, āloko udapādi
Therefore, the usage of vijjā above is for the realisation of the Dhamma. It seems vijjā used by the sutta compilers pointing to different levels of wisdom from the basic level to the Arahant level.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”
SarathW
Posts: 14932
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Sammāñāṇassa and Vijjā

Post by SarathW »

Credit: To the venerable who doesn't want his name to be advertised :smile: :namaste:
Thank you SB and the venerable for your effort and taking time to answer these questions.
This is a great way to obtain the help of monks who do not wish to involve with internet forums.
:anjali:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
budo
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Sammāñāṇassa and Vijjā

Post by budo »

StormBorn wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:04 am As evident from the sutta itself, the vijjā of SN 45.1 is referring to “a knowledge” as opposed to the “ignorance” (avijjā) of it. This knowledge is the knowledge of right & wrong (kusala & akusala) and the Path. To follow the Path, first, the knowledge of it is required. That’s why the Buddha first revealed the knowledge of the Path to the world.

Similar to the post here, AN 10.105 has no parallel too. This further adds evidence that sammāñāṇa and sammāvimutti are a later development, or at least something that the early Buddhists not much worried about. However, considering sammāñāṇa coming after sammāsamādhi, with some help from DN 2, we can conclude ñāṇas as referring to abhiññā, ñāṇa-dassana & āsavakkhaya. Hence, in the two references you quoted, vijjā is a basic knowledge, and ñāṇa is a result of a mind purified by jhānas.

However, regard to the Enlightenment of the Bodhisatta Vipassī, vijjā used in SN 12.4 as synonyms for ñāṇa and paññā also.
“‘Cessation, cessation’—thus, bhikkhus, in regard to things unheard before there arose in the Bodhisatta Vipassī vision, knowledge, wisdom, true knowledge, and light.”
cakkhuṃ udapādi, ñāṇaṃ udapādi, paññā udapādi, vijjā udapādi, āloko udapādi
Therefore, the usage of vijjā above is for the realisation of the Dhamma. It seems vijjā used by the sutta compilers pointing to different levels of wisdom from the basic level to the Arahant level.

Great post, and not to derail this thread (mods feel free to move this reply), but this is one of my qualms with the vipassana movement.

The progress of insight by Mahasi lists all the nanas, which Thanissaro debunked as a random list coming from brahmins. But besides the point, if you read the suttas and early agamas, vipassana is an effect that comes after the supernormal powers, which come after the 4th jhana.

So as a rebuke they invent "vipassana jhanas", which is nowhere in the suttas, and furthermore is object-less and aim-less, where as anapanasati has specific instructions on what to move your attention to such as piti, with the aim of calming fabrications.

It is clear from the suttas that the REAL practice involves:

- calming fabrications via anapanasati
- overcoming the 5 hindrances through discernment and mindfulness
- ceasing perception through jhana
- contemplating impermanence and the 10 perceptions

The purpose of the path is to remove clinging to the 5 aggregates, and it does this by showing you how great it is when the aggregates are "turned off" (they're not really turned off, you're just looking away from them).
Spiny Norman
Posts: 7944
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Sammāñāṇassa and Vijjā

Post by Spiny Norman »

budo wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:16 am The purpose of the path is to remove clinging to the 5 aggregates, and it does this by showing you how great it is when the aggregates are "turned off" (they're not really turned off, you're just looking away from them).
I think you are describing nibbidā ( disillusionment ) here - the turning-away of the mind from the conditioned samsaric world ( aka the aggregates ) and towards the unconditioned ie Nibbāna.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
StormBorn
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:31 pm

Re: Sammāñāṇassa and Vijjā

Post by StormBorn »

SarathW wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:48 am
Credit: To the venerable who doesn't want his name to be advertised :smile: :namaste:
Thank you SB and the venerable for your effort and taking time to answer these questions.
This is a great way to obtain the help of monks who do not wish to involve with internet forums.
:anjali:
Yes, but I will not keep my hopes up as I consider myself lucky if I managed to receive a reply email from him within a week. :smile:

My effort is nothing compared to the venerable's considering he has no permanent place to stay even. Oh, you know a bunch of alcohol drinking monks kicked him out :guns: of his monastery because he's not drinking alcohol and not earning money for the alcoholics. :tongue:
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”
SarathW
Posts: 14932
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Sammāñāṇassa and Vijjā

Post by SarathW »

you know a bunch of alcohol drinking monks kicked him out :guns: of his monastery because he's not drinking alcohol and not earning money for the alcoholics. :tongue:
I hope it is not in Sri Lanka.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
StormBorn
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:31 pm

Re: Sammāñāṇassa and Vijjā

Post by StormBorn »

SarathW wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:00 am
you know a bunch of alcohol drinking monks kicked him out :guns: of his monastery because he's not drinking alcohol and not earning money for the alcoholics. :tongue:
I hope it is not in Sri Lanka.
Unfortunately it is. :( They called themselves the bastion of pure Theravada, right? :twisted:
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”
SarathW
Posts: 14932
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Sammāñāṇassa and Vijjā

Post by SarathW »

Unfortunately it is. :( They called themselves the bastion of pure Theravada, right? :twisted:
People often ask why Buddhist countries are so poor.
Because they are not Buddhist countries.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Post Reply