Did Buddha say lay Ariya should follow the Vinaya?

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SarathW
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Did Buddha say lay Ariya should follow the Vinaya?

Post by SarathW »

Did Buddha say lay Ariya should follow the Vinaya?

From another post DooDoot said:

Once a layperson attains enlightenment, they are Noble Sangha and should follow the spirit of the Vinaya rules when appropriate.

viewtopic.php?p=491128#p491017

Is there a Sutta support for this?
Is it appropriate to suggest some thin is not in the Sutta?
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DooDoot
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Re: Did Buddha say lay Ariya should follow the Vinaya?

Post by DooDoot »

An opinion was previously provided on the previous thread. Did you read the thread? :roll:

There is little emphasis upon enlightened laypeople in the suttas because it appears there were only a few enlightened people and because the Buddha generally did not teach higher Dhamma to laypeople. Therefore, no Vinaya was created for enlightened laypeople.
"This sort of talk on the Dhamma, householder, is not given to lay people clad in white. This sort of talk on the Dhamma is given to those gone forth."

MN 143
For example, in MN 56, when the layman Upali attained stream-entry and then rejected the Jains, it appears he did not say to the Jains he was a stream-enterer. All Upali seemed to do was praise the Buddha and say he was the Buddha'd disciple:
The wise one, free of delusion,
rid of barrenness, victor in battle;
he’s untroubled and so even-minded,
with the virtue of an elder and the wisdom of a saint,
stainless in the midst of it all:
he is the Buddha, and I am his disciple.

https://suttacentral.net/mn56/en/sujato
In AN 6.16, a wife did not even tell her husband she was a "sotapanna". All she said was she had erased all doubts about the Dhamma and was independent in her understanding of the Dhamma:
Now it may be that you are thinking, ‘Nakula’s mother will not reach firm ground in this Doctrine & Discipline, will not attain a firm foothold, will not attain consolation, overcome her doubts, dispel her perplexity, reach fearlessness or gain independence from others with regard to the Teacher’s message,’ but you shouldn’t see things in that way. To the extent that the Blessed One has white-clad householder female disciples who reach firm ground in this Doctrine & Discipline, attain a firm foothold, attain consolation, overcome their doubts, dispel their perplexity, reach fearlessness, & gain independence from others with regard to the Teacher’s message, I am one of them. If anyone doubts or denies this, let him go ask the Blessed One, the worthy one, the rightly self-awakened one who is staying among the Bhaggas in the Deer Park at Bhesakala Grove, near Crocodile Haunt. So don’t be worried as you die, householder. Death is painful for one who is worried. The Blessed One has criticized being worried at the time of death.”

https://suttacentral.net/an6.16/en/thanissaro
Most importantly, the wife said if the husband has any doubts about his wife, the husband should ask the Buddha to confirm her attainment. But since the Buddha is no longer with us, who will confirm the attainments of those claiming to be sotapanna? :shrug:

On this very DW forum, people post often they attain jhana or they attain non-returner (even though those same people say they still indulge in sensuality). All that arises from these declarations are arguments.
SarathW wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:53 amFor instance, if I tell this forum I am a Sotapanna, what is the problem?
Based on your posts I have read on DW, particularly your replies to me, I recall you posted a number times you have no personal interest in giving up self-clinging and self-cherishing. When I post about giving up imputing selfhood upon aggregates, you say this is too difficult for you and is for arahants (even though it is really training for sotapanna). Therefore, it appears your question is not only irrelevant but also disrespectful to sotapanna (because sotapanna rejoice in the abandonment of self-belief but you want to encourage the sotapanna to develop the self-belief of "I am a sotapanna"). :roll:
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Alīno
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Re: Did Buddha say lay Ariya should follow the Vinaya?

Post by Alīno »

Sottapana have perfect sila, it's enought... But I think naturally an Arya's mind rejoice discipline, but his discipline is probably not based on faith but on knowledge.
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budo
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Re: Did Buddha say lay Ariya should follow the Vinaya?

Post by budo »

In the Milinda Panha suttas Nagasena says that a lay Arahant will die within 7 days because the lay life is not suitable for him (probably too stressful). Which I take it to mean that the vinaya comes from the mind of an enlightened person (The Budhda), for an enlightened person (The Buddha). It is a refuge for enlightened people.

I also remember reading a sutta about a prince who attains enlightenment in the middle of the night, and the next morning he sees his mistresses, his luxurious apparel, and food, and is disgusted and repulsed and he runs away, the Buddha telepathically communicates with him and tells him to come to the refuge.

The Buddha also said that the more rules there are, the less enlightened people there are in the world, and vise versa.

So to sum it up, an Ariya doesn't need to follow the vinaya, the vinaya follows the Ariya.
SarathW
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Re: Did Buddha say lay Ariya should follow the Vinaya?

Post by SarathW »

the vinaya comes from the mind of an enlightened person
Agree.
There is no need a Vinaya cod for Arahant.
Even a Sotapanna will have a certain amount of Vinaya built into his attainment.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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StormBorn
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Re: Did Buddha say lay Ariya should follow the Vinaya?

Post by StormBorn »

SarathW wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:55 pm Did Buddha say lay Ariya should follow the Vinaya?
Ariya monks follow Vinaya out of respect to the Buddha and his words, but lay ariyas will not follow bhikkhu rules. If you read some origin stories in Vinaya, it's clear some Arahant monks even did things such as storing food before the rules came, eg. Ven. Ananda's teacher's story.
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WorldTraveller
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Re: Did Buddha say lay Ariya should follow the Vinaya?

Post by WorldTraveller »

StormBorn wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:37 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:55 pm Did Buddha say lay Ariya should follow the Vinaya?
Ariya monks follow Vinaya out of respect to the Buddha and his words
What you say seems to be true. One of the ancient Buddhists school has a record in their Vinaya where Arahant Purana met Arahant Kassapa after the Buddha's passing away (forgot the exact reference). There, Arahant Kassapa informed about some changes made by the Buddha while the Arahant Purana was away. However, Arahant Purana refused to follow these new changes based on Arahant Kasspapa's word and said, "It may be. But, I will follow the Vinaya according to what I heard directly from the Lord's mouth."
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