What is Vibhava Tanha?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
fyjo
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:10 am

Re: What is Vibhava Tanha?

Post by fyjo »

Some reference that I found.

Samuda­ya­sacca­niddesa
Katamañca, bhikkhave, duk­kha­sa­muda­yaṃ ariyasaccaṃ? Yāyaṃ taṇhā ponobbhavikā nandī­rāga­saha­gatā tatra­tat­rā­bhinan­dinī, seyyathidaṃ—kāmataṇhā bhavataṇhā vibhavataṇhā.

The Truth of Origination
And what, monks, is the Noble Truth of the Origination of Suffering? It is that craving which leads to the continuation of existence, which is connected with enjoyment and passion, greatly enjoying this and that, as follows:
craving in regard to sense pleasures
craving in regard to the continuation of existence
craving in regard to the discontinuation of existence.
(translated by Bhikkhu Anandajoti - from Suttacentral)

DN 22 - Mahā­sati­paṭṭhā­na­sutta
eddygan325
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Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:43 pm

Re: What is Vibhava Tanha?

Post by eddygan325 »

auto wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:18 pm
James Tan wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:06 pm Annihilation :
the state of being annihilated; total destruction; extinction .

Nibbana :
through practising , termination of existence .

Fundamentally , both concept looks the same .
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.15/en/sujato
“Kaccāna, this world mostly relies on the dual notions of existence and non-existence.
“Dvayanissito khvāyaṃ, kaccāna, loko yebhuyyena—atthitañceva natthitañca.

But when you truly see the origin of the world with right understanding, you won’t have the notion of non-existence regarding the world. Lokasamudayaṃ kho, kaccāna, yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya passato yā loke natthitā sā na hoti.

And when you truly see the cessation of the world with right understanding, you won’t have the notion of existence regarding the world.
Lokanirodhaṃ kho, kaccāna, yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya passato yā loke atthitā sā na hoti.
nibbana can't be similar to annihilation

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

annihilation:
With the break-up of the body, the wise and the foolish alike are annihilated, destroyed. They do not exist after death.'
-
Arising and passing away doesn't mean destruction or annihilation:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"'All phenomena are rooted in desire.[1]
"'All phenomena come into play through attention.
"'All phenomena have contact as their origination.
"'All phenomena have feeling as their meeting place.
"'All phenomena have concentration as their presiding state.
"'All phenomena have mindfulness as their governing principle.
"'All phenomena have discernment as their surpassing state.
"'All phenomena have release as their heartwood.
"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.
"'All phenomena have Unbinding as their final end.'
just need to excuse some bold wordings into hint to some not on point meaning

"when you see cessation of a world you can't have notion of existence regarding to world". - If it would be truly a destruction of a world what after that doesn't arise anymore, then how you can have any notion on it at all?


Thanks for showing the sutta. Yes, craving for existence or non-existence still have the self identify with it.

But the middle way - dependent origination, seeing the condition and dukkha as arising and passing away , does not attach with self identity . It's just about arising of Dukkha and cessation of Dukkha.

That's why Buddha refuse to answer whether is existence or non-existence , instead the Buddha said is only about Dukkha and cessation of Dukkha. The way Buddha look at things is without self-identity.

If we have self identify, we will mention I exist or I non-exist. ( Self identity, craving for existence and non-existence)

Without self identity, it's only arising and passing away, it's about dukkha, and cessation of Dukkha 🙏

(My understanding)
Jack19990101
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Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:40 am

Re: What is Vibhava Tanha?

Post by Jack19990101 »

Vibhava Tanha is not craving for annihilation.

It is the desire to keep the potential of becoming.
Manifestation of vibhava tanha includes, saving & storing, reputation, power position etc.

A person could lead a very simple life, no anxiety. But his contentment is supported by the knowledge that he has lots money in the bank. He loses his peace if he loses his savings.

A compassionate leader manages his country wisely and swear to never apply his powerful military upon anybody. But when if his power to control the military is taken away, he would panic.

Lots are against banning on guns but also said he won't use gun. They like to keep the option to get a gun open.

A practitioner could understand nibbana and want it. But he also subtly wants to keep the potential to come back to this world even if he would not image an occasion he would carry that potential out.

Those are vibhava tanha - it is the mindset: i wont do it but i keep it as a possibility just in case.
sakyan
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Re: What is Vibhava Tanha?

Post by sakyan »

SarathW wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:17 am What is Vibhava Tanha?
What is the destination (rebirth) of a person with Vibhaba Tanha?
Is the view non-existence considered Vibhava Tanha?
What is the Sutta reference relating to this teaching?
Why the desire for Nibbana is not considered Vibhava Tanha?
I understand Vibhava Tanha as grasping to an illusion of self and then wishing that the self because of which one experiences existence do not exist.

Nibbana is far different from Vibhava Tanha, Nibbana is freedom from all grasping, clinging, self-view and identity-view.
SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is Vibhava Tanha?

Post by SarathW »

Isn't the thought that life is suffering and try to escape that is Vibhava tanha?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Jack19990101
Posts: 714
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:40 am

Re: What is Vibhava Tanha?

Post by Jack19990101 »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:46 pm Isn't the thought that life is suffering and try to escape that is Vibhava tanha?
That is not Vibhava Tanha, it is still within bhava tanha's domain.
When we say 'apple' is my desire, it automatically entails 'not apple', 'part of an apple' as the same desire.
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