How to practise sati ?

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DooDoot
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Re: How to practise sati ?

Post by DooDoot »

Dinsdale wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:02 am It is described as paying attention in the Satipatthana Sutta, which is the core text on sati.
I quoted the text for you. The word "observing" ("anupassi") is not mindfulness (sati). Your ideas appear to have no basis in the Pali nor in the Satipatthana Sutta.
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SarathW
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Re: How to practise sati ?

Post by SarathW »

Dinsdale wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:42 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:07 pm Satipathana or Anapanasati is the practice of Sati.
The Satipatthana Sutta describes the practice of sati.

The four tetrads of anapanasati look like a derivative version of satipatthana, where attention is split between the breath and lots of other things. Rather confusing, like trying to do two things at once.

The other problem with the four tetrads is the lack of consensus about how they should be practiced. Note the endless and inconclusive discussions on forums like this one.
Do not worry too much about the categories. Just do the practice.
They all will come together one day.
Even though there are four tetrads they do not have to be in sequence contrary to the popular belief.
This applies to the Noble Eightfold Path as well.
Last edited by SarathW on Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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sentinel
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Re: How to practise sati ?

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:28 am
James Tan wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:49 amHow does one being mindful abandon wrong view and remain in right view ?
By using mindfulness or by being mindful. By practising sati. :smile:
How can just being mindful is able to abandon wrong view ?
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Re: How to practise sati ?

Post by sentinel »

Dinsdale wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:13 am
James Tan wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:12 pm The first in the order of the seven factors of enlightenment is sati .
How does one practice sati ? By being mindful of breathing and the body movement / posture or is there something more to it ?
There are four foundations of mindfulness or frames of reference - body, feeling, mind and dhamma. These are described in the Satipatthana Sutta, MN10.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

The basic practice is to pay attention to various aspects of experience, and to understand more clearly how phenomena arise and cease.
Could you provide pali for arise and cease ?
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Re: How to practise sati ?

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:03 am
Dinsdale wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:02 am It is described as paying attention in the Satipatthana Sutta, which is the core text on sati.
I quoted the text for you. The word "observing" ("anupassi") is not mindfulness (sati). Your ideas appear to have no basis in the Pali nor in the Satipatthana Sutta.
Sati is being aware ?
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pegembara
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Re: How to practise sati ?

Post by pegembara »

James Tan wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:14 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:51 am
What I refer to is while you practice Anapanasati , how do you abandon ignorance?
This is generally happens in the third and the fourth tetrad.
The way I see it reflecting on Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta is how the ignorance abandoned.
So, breathing in and out , long & short , course & fine etc you watch how the breath didn't last long , therefore impermanent and the breath give rise to suffering ?
What about anatta , how do you see breath as not self ?
If you can observe the breath without interference, ask
"Who" or 'what' breathes?
What causes the air to move in and out? Is it the diaphragm, chest muscles, lungs, nerve signals, brain, lack of O2, excessive CO2 etc?
The inescapable conclusion is that breathing is the result of various causes and conditions. No one is actually doing the breathing!
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
auto
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Re: How to practise sati ?

Post by auto »

pegembara wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:02 am
James Tan wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:14 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:51 am
This is generally happens in the third and the fourth tetrad.
The way I see it reflecting on Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta is how the ignorance abandoned.
So, breathing in and out , long & short , course & fine etc you watch how the breath didn't last long , therefore impermanent and the breath give rise to suffering ?
What about anatta , how do you see breath as not self ?
If you can observe the breath without interference, ask
"Who" or 'what' breathes?
What causes the air to move in and out? Is it the diaphragm, chest muscles, lungs, nerve signals, brain, lack of O2, excessive CO2 etc?
The inescapable conclusion is that breathing is the result of various causes and conditions. No one is actually doing the breathing!
What about coming aware of manual breathing where you can't forget the breathing and have to just breath in and out like walking you have to walk if you want to reach your destination. If you don't do breathing you start feel suffocation.

I first handedly know that i am breathing in and out since its me who is doing it otherwise noone does it and i start feel suffocation.

its prolly not kayasankhara doing the breathing here. Maybe cittasankhara
auto
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Re: How to practise sati ?

Post by auto »

https://suttacentral.net/mn118/pli/ms

samadhiyati = recluse have been born.
cittam samadhiyati
sukhino cittam samadhiyati
Passadddhakayassa sukhino cittam samadhiyati

breath comes calm then awareness connects to it and rises up to head from body.
pegembara
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Re: How to practise sati ?

Post by pegembara »

auto wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:48 pm
pegembara wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:02 am
James Tan wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:14 am

So, breathing in and out , long & short , course & fine etc you watch how the breath didn't last long , therefore impermanent and the breath give rise to suffering ?
What about anatta , how do you see breath as not self ?
If you can observe the breath without interference, ask
"Who" or 'what' breathes?
What causes the air to move in and out? Is it the diaphragm, chest muscles, lungs, nerve signals, brain, lack of O2, excessive CO2 etc?
The inescapable conclusion is that breathing is the result of various causes and conditions. No one is actually doing the breathing!
What about coming aware of manual breathing where you can't forget the breathing and have to just breath in and out like walking you have to walk if you want to reach your destination. If you don't do breathing you start feel suffocation.

I first handedly know that i am breathing in and out since its me who is doing it otherwise noone does it and i start feel suffocation.

its prolly not kayasankhara doing the breathing here. Maybe cittasankhara
The instruction is not to interfere with breathing. 'You' actually don't need to be around for breathing to take place. The body breathes on its own unlike walking.

And if it's 'you' who breathe, 'you' should be able to stop breathing at will. Is it really under ' 'your' control? Breath is tied up with the body.
Last edited by pegembara on Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to practise sati ?

Post by Cittasanto »

Ardent alert and mindful, setting aside pain and distress in regards to the world.
It's the satipatana refrain. Try to apply that and you will be more mindful.

In truth
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sentinel
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Re: How to practise sati ?

Post by sentinel »

pegembara wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:02 am
James Tan wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:14 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:51 am
This is generally happens in the third and the fourth tetrad.
The way I see it reflecting on Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta is how the ignorance abandoned.
So, breathing in and out , long & short , course & fine etc you watch how the breath didn't last long , therefore impermanent and the breath give rise to suffering ?
What about anatta , how do you see breath as not self ?
If you can observe the breath without interference, ask
"Who" or 'what' breathes?

What causes the air to move in and out? Is it the diaphragm, chest muscles, lungs, nerve signals, brain, lack of O2, excessive CO2 etc?
The inescapable conclusion is that breathing is the result of various causes and conditions. No one is actually doing the breathing!
But , when we observing breath and asking or questioning , we are not really watching already right ?
You always gain by giving
pegembara
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Re: How to practise sati ?

Post by pegembara »

James Tan wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:57 am
pegembara wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:02 am
James Tan wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:14 am

So, breathing in and out , long & short , course & fine etc you watch how the breath didn't last long , therefore impermanent and the breath give rise to suffering ?
What about anatta , how do you see breath as not self ?
If you can observe the breath without interference, ask
"Who" or 'what' breathes?

What causes the air to move in and out? Is it the diaphragm, chest muscles, lungs, nerve signals, brain, lack of O2, excessive CO2 etc?
The inescapable conclusion is that breathing is the result of various causes and conditions. No one is actually doing the breathing!
But , when we observing breath and asking or questioning , we are not really watching already right ?
You are investigating what you have already observed. Without investigation(dhammavicaya) you are not putting the Buddha's teachings to the test.
The second enlightenment factor is dhammavicaya, keen investigation of the Dhamma. It is the sharp analytical knowledge of understanding the true nature of all constituent things animate or inanimate, human or divine. It is seeing things as they really are; seeing things in their proper perspective. It is the analysis of all component things into their fundamental elements, right down to their ultimates. Through keen investigation one understands that all compounded things pass through the inconceivably rapid moments of uppada, thiti, and bhanga, or of arising, reaching a peak, and ceasing, just as a river in flood sweeps to a climax and fades away. The whole universe is constantly changing, not remaining the same for two consecutive moments. All things in fact are subjected to causes, conditions, and effects (hetu, paccaya, and phala). Systematic reflection (yoniso manasikara) comes naturally through right mindfulness, and it urges one to discriminate, to reason and investigate. Shallow thinking, unsystematic investigation (ayoniso manasikara) makes men muddle-headed; and then they fail to investigate the nature of things. Such people cannot see cause and effect, seed and fruit, the rise and fall of compounded things. Says the Buddha: "This doctrine is for the wise and not for the unwise."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el001.html
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Re: How to practise sati ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:03 am
Dinsdale wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:02 am It is described as paying attention in the Satipatthana Sutta, which is the core text on sati.
I quoted the text for you. The word "observing" ("anupassi") is not mindfulness (sati). Your ideas appear to have no basis in the Pali nor in the Satipatthana Sutta.
The Satipatthana Sutta is all about observing ( anupassi ). That is the practice. Mn10 doesn't go on about recollecting a teachers instruction, or whatever. Neither does MN 118.
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Re: How to practise sati ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

pegembara wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:57 am You are investigating what you have already observed. Without investigation(dhammavicaya) you are not putting the Buddha's teachings to the test.
Exactly. It is about observation and subsequent investigation. Not about recollecting what a teacher has said, or whatever.
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DooDoot
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Re: How to practise sati ?

Post by DooDoot »

Dinsdale wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:19 amThe Satipatthana Sutta is all about observing ( anupassi ).
Why are you attempting to use what I posted about "anupassi" against me & claiming it as your view? :spy: "Anupassi" is not 'sati". As for the Satipatthana Sutta, it is actually about "non-attachment" and "letting go". The whole Dhamma is about this. The role of "sati" is to let go. The role of "sati" is unrelated to "observing". The "observing" happens automatically when the mind lets go.
He remains... mindful :roll:putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

MN 10
And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to :roll: ) anything in the world.

MN 10
One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view :roll: : This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.

MN 117
There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment/letting go :roll: (vossagga).

MN 118
And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go (vossagga) :roll: , attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana...

SN 48.10
Here, ruler of gods, a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to :roll: . When a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having directly known everything, he fully understood everything

MN 37
:heart:
Dinsdale wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:19 am... you are missing the point. :shrug:
No. I am not the one missing the point. I am not the one misguiding others to fruitless practise. The role of 'sati' is not 'observing'. The role of sati is the 'gatekeeper', which remembers to keep the mind free from defilements & wrong views. :|
Dinsdale wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:20 amExactly. It is about observation and subsequent investigation. Not about recollecting what a teacher has said, or whatever.
Wisdom is about observation and subsequent investigation; not sati. "Sati" is about recollecting what a teacher has said. "Sati" remembers:

1. The Buddha said to abandon craving therefore keep the mind free from craving.

2. The Buddha said to not attach to anything therefore keep the mind free from attachment.

3. The Buddha said conditioned things are impermanent therefore do not grasp at anything conditioned as being permanent.

4. The Buddha said conditioned things are unsatisfactory therefore do not grasp at anything conditioned as being satisfactory.

5. The Buddha said conditioned things are not-self therefore do not grasp at anything conditioned as being self.

Above is what "sati" does. It remembers what the teacher said so to keep the mind is a state of non-attachment & non-craving.

Let us repeat what the Buddha taught about this:
One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view :bow: : This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.

MN 117
:bow: :buddha1: :bow:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:00 am, edited 4 times in total.
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