Is everyting predetermined?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
user99
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:40 pm

Re: Is everyting predetermined?

Post by user99 »

Goenka have right i believe. For every new level of nirvana you come out as a totally changed person. ☺
chownah
Posts: 8984
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Is everyting predetermined?

Post by chownah »

dharmacorps wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:17 pm If everything were pre determined, there'd be no point to practicing the dhamma and discipline. The Buddha specifically rejected this idea.
If everything were pre determined some people would be pre determined to think that "If everything were pre determined, there'd be no point to practicing the dhamma and discipline.".....and some people would be pre determined to think that "Even if everything is pre determined there is still a point to practicing the dhamma and discipline."
chownah
thepea
Posts: 1731
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Is everyting predetermined?

Post by thepea »

Only in Jamaica.
user99
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:40 pm

Re: Is everyting predetermined?

Post by user99 »

Sherab wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:57 pm
Laurens wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:49 am I don't think it's the kind of question that has any use to our practise.
How it is answered is useful for practice.
Past actions determined the present experience. Therefore the present is determinate.
But our choices are maybe not made of present experience maybe we have a totally own choice.?
pyluyten
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:08 am

Re: Is everyting predetermined?

Post by pyluyten »

user99 wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:44 am Goenka said that everything is predetermined.
And i hope he didnt just only ment choices one make.
why does he say so
pyluyten
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:08 am

Re: Is everyting predetermined?

Post by pyluyten »

Dinsdale wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:17 pm
user99 wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:40 am Is everything predetermined?
No. Everything arises in dependence upon conditions, but we are able to alter the conditions.
i agree with first part.
justindesilva
Posts: 1337
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Is everyting predetermined?

Post by justindesilva »

pyluyten wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:33 am
Dinsdale wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:17 pm
user99 wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:40 am Is everything predetermined?
No. Everything arises in dependence upon conditions, but we are able to alter the conditions.
i agree with first part.
An astrologer too would say that all we undergo is predetermined. At the same time he explains that it is ones own kamma.
True enough the sutta about kamma explain that what we undergo is our own intentional acts in the past. The weights of these kamma is explained for instance in salt crystal sutta ( lonapalaka) or Velama sutta.
Kamma also has its weights on the intentions of acts , say in abusing or hurting an aryan or parents as heinous or acts of lesser weights with other vipakas.
The first step in paticca samuppada as avidya paccaya sankara explain that even what we are today too is our own status of the mind deluded or not.
ToVincent
Posts: 1105
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Is everyting predetermined?

Post by ToVincent »

Macroscopic objects average out microscopic quantum uncertainties and probabilities to accomodate a somewhat satisfactory "determinism" that appears in the visible "Laws of Nature."
For the purpose of simplifying physics - to allow mathematical and logical methodologies like differential equations - determinism is just an abstract theory.
What we see in classical physics, is just the averaging over a very large number of microscopic particles.
It is the same as the law of large numbers, and its central limit theorem, in probability.
Nowhere, is there really a rigorous determinism in the physical world.

Randomness (a.k.a. accident,) at the quantum level happens, and causes indeterminism.
The question that will remain is:
"Is the cause of randomness purely "material""?
A question that is not to be answered soon, I presume.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
pyluyten
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:08 am

Re: Is everyting predetermined?

Post by pyluyten »

ToVincent wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:39 am Macroscopic objects average out microscopic quantum uncertainties and probabilities to accomodate a somewhat satisfactory "determinism" that appears in the visible "Laws of Nature."
For the purpose of simplifying physics - to allow mathematical and logical methodologies like differential equations - determinism is just an abstract theory.
What we see in classical physics, is just the averaging over a very large number of microscopic particles.
It is the same as the law of large numbers, and its central limit theorem, in probability.
Nowhere, is there really a rigorous determinism in the physical world.

Randomness (a.k.a. accident,) at the quantum level happens, and causes indeterminism.
The question that will remain is:
"Is the cause of randomness purely "material""?
A question that is not to be answered soon, I presume.
.
.
Quantum physics is physics because it allows to predict stuff. For example thanks to it we have precise GPS. A frequent example is laser. Probablilty is different than real randomness. I know for sure probability is shocking but in no way thhings happen for no reason - there is always a cause for an effect, and i'm sure there is a Sutta - maybe even in dhammapada - to say so.
ToVincent
Posts: 1105
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Is everyting predetermined?

Post by ToVincent »

pyluyten wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:19 pm Probablilty is different than real randomness.
Indeed.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
User avatar
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
Posts: 1235
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:06 pm

Re: Is everyting predetermined?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

user99 wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:44 am Goenka said that everything is predetermined.
And i hope he didnt just only ment choices one make.

If SNG said so, I would unhesitatingly say "non-sense, Guruji..!!"

And, yet, my gut knows right away that something must be very wrong with above statement, because how could a person like SNG possibly say something like that.




Reality [after some googling] is:
https://www.vridhamma.org/node/2489
Student:
  • Aren’t there any chance happenings, random occurrences without a cause?
Goenkaji:
  • Nothing happens without a cause. It is not possible. Sometimes our limited senses and intellects cannot clearly find it, but that does not mean that there is no cause.
Student:
  • Are you saying that everything in this life is predetermined?
Goenkaji:
  • Well, certainly our past actions will give fruit, good or bad. They will determine the type of life we have, the general situation in which we find ourselves. But that does not mean that whatever happens to us is predestined, ordained by our past actions, and that nothing else can happen. That is not the case. Our past actions influence the flow of our life, directing them towards pleasant or unpleasant experiences. But present actions are equally important. Nature has given us the ability to become masters of our present actions. With the mastery we can change our future.
:heart:
.


🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐

Self ...
  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22
Post Reply