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Re: Is everyting predetermined?
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:40 am
by user99
Goenka have right i believe. For every new level of nirvana you come out as a totally changed person. ☺
Re: Is everyting predetermined?
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:57 am
by chownah
dharmacorps wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:17 pm
If everything were pre determined, there'd be no point to practicing the dhamma and discipline. The Buddha specifically rejected this idea.
If everything were pre determined some people would be pre determined to think that "If everything were pre determined, there'd be no point to practicing the dhamma and discipline.".....and some people would be pre determined to think that "Even if everything is pre determined there is still a point to practicing the dhamma and discipline."
chownah
Re: Is everyting predetermined?
Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:26 am
by thepea
Only in Jamaica.
Re: Is everyting predetermined?
Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:50 pm
by user99
Sherab wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:57 pm
Laurens wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:49 am
I don't think it's the kind of question that has any use to our practise.
How it is answered is useful for practice.
Past actions determined the present experience. Therefore the present is determinate.
But our choices are maybe not made of present experience maybe we have a totally own choice.?
Re: Is everyting predetermined?
Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:32 am
by pyluyten
user99 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:44 am
Goenka said that everything is predetermined.
And i hope he didnt just only ment choices one make.
why does he say so
Re: Is everyting predetermined?
Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:33 am
by pyluyten
Dinsdale wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:17 pm
user99 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:40 am
Is everything predetermined?
No. Everything arises in dependence upon conditions, but we are able to alter the conditions.
i agree with first part.
Re: Is everyting predetermined?
Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:59 am
by justindesilva
pyluyten wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:33 am
Dinsdale wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:17 pm
user99 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:40 am
Is everything predetermined?
No. Everything arises in dependence upon conditions, but we are able to alter the conditions.
i agree with first part.
An astrologer too would say that all we undergo is predetermined. At the same time he explains that it is ones own kamma.
True enough the sutta about kamma explain that what we undergo is our own intentional acts in the past. The weights of these kamma is explained for instance in salt crystal sutta ( lonapalaka) or Velama sutta.
Kamma also has its weights on the intentions of acts , say in abusing or hurting an aryan or parents as heinous or acts of lesser weights with other vipakas.
The first step in paticca samuppada as avidya paccaya sankara explain that even what we are today too is our own status of the mind deluded or not.
Re: Is everyting predetermined?
Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:39 am
by ToVincent
Macroscopic objects average out microscopic quantum uncertainties and probabilities to accomodate a somewhat satisfactory "determinism" that appears in the visible "Laws of Nature."
For the purpose of simplifying physics - to allow mathematical and logical methodologies like differential equations - determinism is just an abstract theory.
What we see in classical physics, is just the averaging over a very large number of microscopic particles.
It is the same as the law of large numbers, and its central limit theorem, in probability.
Nowhere, is there really a rigorous determinism in the physical world.
Randomness (a.k.a. accident,) at the quantum level happens, and causes indeterminism.
The question that will remain is:
"Is the cause of randomness purely "material""?
A question that is not to be answered soon, I presume.
.
.
Re: Is everyting predetermined?
Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:19 pm
by pyluyten
ToVincent wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:39 am
Macroscopic objects average out microscopic quantum uncertainties and probabilities to accomodate a somewhat satisfactory "determinism" that appears in the visible "Laws of Nature."
For the purpose of simplifying physics - to allow mathematical and logical methodologies like differential equations - determinism is just an abstract theory.
What we see in classical physics, is just the averaging over a very large number of microscopic particles.
It is the same as the law of large numbers, and its central limit theorem, in probability.
Nowhere, is there really a rigorous determinism in the physical world.
Randomness (a.k.a. accident,) at the quantum level happens, and causes indeterminism.
The question that will remain is:
"Is the cause of randomness purely "material""?
A question that is not to be answered soon, I presume.
.
.
Quantum physics is physics because it allows to predict stuff. For example thanks to it we have precise GPS. A frequent example is laser. Probablilty is different than real randomness. I know for sure probability is shocking but in no way thhings happen for no reason - there is always a cause for an effect, and i'm sure there is a Sutta - maybe even in dhammapada - to say so.
Re: Is everyting predetermined?
Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:40 pm
by ToVincent
pyluyten wrote: ↑Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:19 pm
Probablilty is different than real randomness.
Indeed.
Re: Is everyting predetermined?
Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:26 pm
by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
user99 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:44 am
Goenka said that everything is predetermined.
And i hope he didnt just only ment choices one make.
If SNG said so, I would unhesitatingly say "non-sense, Guruji..!!"
And, yet, my gut knows right away that something must be very wrong with above statement, because how could a person like SNG possibly say something like that.
Reality [after some googling] is:
https://www.vridhamma.org/node/2489
Student:
- Aren’t there any chance happenings, random occurrences without a cause?
Goenkaji:
- Nothing happens without a cause. It is not possible. Sometimes our limited senses and intellects cannot clearly find it, but that does not mean that there is no cause.
Student:
- Are you saying that everything in this life is predetermined?
Goenkaji:
- Well, certainly our past actions will give fruit, good or bad. They will determine the type of life we have, the general situation in which we find ourselves. But that does not mean that whatever happens to us is predestined, ordained by our past actions, and that nothing else can happen. That is not the case. Our past actions influence the flow of our life, directing them towards pleasant or unpleasant experiences. But present actions are equally important. Nature has given us the ability to become masters of our present actions. With the mastery we can change our future.
