Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

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SarathW
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Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by SarathW »

Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?
If then why we need a Path (Magga) to eliminate Dukkha?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by DooDoot »

Learn this from Nagarjuna? Been reading the Heart Sutra?
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SarathW
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by SarathW »

No.
It appears Ven. Buddhaparayana is thinking that way.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=33305
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retrofuturist
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:26 am Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?
It seems like a rather non-sensical proposition to me, and given there's no mention of it in the suttas (to the best of my recollection), I'd expect the "burden of proof" (both to demonstrate its plausibility, and the advantage of this as mode of seeing and understanding) to lie with whoever was making that claim.

Until then, I don't see any reason to take an interest in such theories.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
SarathW
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by SarathW »

Didn't Buddha say whatever subject to arising subject to perishing?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:16 am Didn't Buddha say whatever subject to arising subject to perishing?
He did, but it's logically impossible that any "thing" could both arise and perish at the same time, which is what you're talking about, isn't it?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by cappuccino »

hit a golf ball and watch

how difficult can this be

are you watching the ball or reading about golf?

(apply this to everything, always)
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by cappuccino »

if you think a woman is valuable, notice one thing

she arises and ceases very quickly

if you think an expensive car is valuable, notice

it arises and ceases quickly
Art of the 21st Century

If we ignore the need of beauty, we find ourselves in a spiritual desert.

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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by paul »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:16 am Didn't Buddha say whatever subject to arising subject to perishing?
Materiality is the easiest subject for contemplating impermanence, and there are different time frames for origination and passing away depending on the size of the object. The dissolution phase gets focus as the unwholesome root of greed is conditioned to attach to the ripeness phase :

“ And further, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel
ground—one day, two days, three days dead—bloated, livid, & festering, he
applies it to this very body, ‘This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future,
such its unavoidable fate.’
“In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or
externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body
in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with
regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the
body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the
body."---DN 22
SarathW
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by SarathW »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:41 am Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:16 am Didn't Buddha say whatever subject to arising subject to perishing?
He did, but it's logically impossible that any "thing" could both arise and perish at the same time, which is what you're talking about, isn't it?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Oh, I see.
When I said the same time I meant Dukkha also subject to perish (Nirodha).
When there is Dukkha Saumudaya there is always Dukkha Nirodha as well.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by Srilankaputra »

Why should i follow the noble eight fold path when whatever suffering and discomfort i feel is also impermanent it will arise and perish according to conditions ?

even the happiest man on earth must live in fear that it's all going to end. There is no escape from fear of impermanence in any state of being. Not even maha brahma.


IMO.

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by justindesilva »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:26 am Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?
If then why we need a Path (Magga) to eliminate Dukkha?
SN12.23 Upanisa sutta explains the preconditions for ending. It is an explanation of transcendental paticca samupada. Each nidana ends by conditioning of the next condition. Eg. Ignorance conditions sankara. As sankara conditions vingnana ignorance dissociates and goes on as continuation of PS.
Here utpada tithi bhanga ( arising sustenenace and change) is exhibited.
Here the arising of conditions for dukka through thanha is explained. As long as tanha and clinging is sustained dukka too is sustained as a condition, before it can be changed as nirodha by dispassion.
It is imperative that the only path to relieve dukka is arya ashtanga margaya.
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by SkillfulA »

sarathw wrote: When there is Dukkha Saumudaya there is always Dukkha Nirodha as well.
Correct. Whatever has the nature of arising has the nature of ceasing.
If then why we need a Path (Magga) to eliminate Dukkha?
We don't need a path to elimate dukkha but its cause tanha! We practice this path to comprehend dukkha and to stop tanha. Dukkha can't arise without the arising of its cause tanha. The arising of dukkha is felt to be unpleasant, its temporary persistence is felt to be unpleasant, its ceasing not. The non-arising of tanha and so dukkha is felt to be pleasant.

Unless we stop tanha, Dukkha will arise and cease again and again endlessly, which is felt to be unpleasant.
Last edited by SkillfulA on Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by cappuccino »

Srilankaputra wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:00 amwhatever suffering and discomfort i feel is also impermanent
it reduces suffering to know this
Art of the 21st Century

If we ignore the need of beauty, we find ourselves in a spiritual desert.

Our feeling for beauty is a spiritual and not a sensual emotion.

-Roger Scruton
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by SarathW »

SkillfulA wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:12 pm
sarathw wrote: When there is Dukkha Saumudaya there is always Dukkha Nirodha as well.
Correct. Whatever has the nature of arising has the nature of ceasing.
If then why we need a Path (Magga) to eliminate Dukkha?
We don't need a path to elimate dukkha but its cause tanha! We practice this path to comprehend dukkha and to stop tanha. Dukkha can't arise without the arising of its cause tanha. The arising of dukkha is felt to be unpleasant, its temporary persistence is felt to be unpleasant, its ceasing not. The non-arising of tanha and so dukkha is felt to be pleasant.

Unless we stop tanha, Dukkha will arise and cease again and again endlessly, which is felt to be unpleasant.
:goodpost:
This is what Ven. Buddhaparayana seems to realise in 1997.
Can you understand Sinhalese?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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