Wouldn't be useful if Arahants reveal their state and achievements?

[bridif1]

Hi!

I'm aware of the prohibitions stated in the Vinaya about sharing their fruitions and ariya status with people outside the Sangha, and I agree -in general- with the reasons for it.

But since we are living in an age and time way different from the Buddha's days, where we value empirically proven knowledge, and where we deeply rely on the scientific method to guide certain aspects of our society, as we can see in the health and medical field.

The health of the mind is a real concern, everyday bigger in our agitated and stressed societies. Depression and anxiety are getting normalized, even when our material conditions and the protection given by our governments has never been as good as today.

Considering what has been said, don't you think that if there are Arahants alive, it could be useful for society as a whole if they made their ariya status public in order to allow scientists to investigate them empirically under controlled conditions and with much details about their neural and behavioral functioning as possible?

If that could be done, Buddhism could potentially stop being considered as mere religious superstition, and maybe public health could start using and standardizing Buddhist insights and methods for diminishing (and potentially ending) with suffering more effectively (in comparison with our current approach applied in Psychiatry and Psychotherapy, with use of questionable methods and drugs).

In my ignorance, this seems as a compassionate measure for our modern times.

What are your thoughts about this?
It is worth breaking Vinaya rules for the sake of potential mass helping?
Or do you think that this kind of actions could lead to more negative consequences (relative to the potential gains)?

Thanks for your time!

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Considering what has been said, don't you think that if there are Arahants alive, it could be useful for society as a whole if they made their ariya status public in order to allow scientists to investigate them empirically under controlled conditions and with much details about their neural and behavioral functioning as possible?

Not really, because what makes them arahants makes them beyond measure.

Metta,
Paul.

[bridif1]

Greetings,

Considering what has been said, don't you think that if there are Arahants alive, it could be useful for society as a whole if they made their ariya status public in order to allow scientists to investigate them empirically under controlled conditions and with much details about their neural and behavioral functioning as possible?

Not really, because what makes them arahants makes them beyond measure.

Metta,
Paul.

Hi Paul!

(I know I said it multiple times, but I know very little about suttas and references).
I read somewhere that in order to know whether a person was a noble one, you can evaluate his/her behavior and reactions, and ask him/her personally about his/her habitual tendencies.
That seems to indicate that some aspects can be measured and studied, at least in principle.

Kind regards!

[Zom]

That seems to indicate that some aspects can be measured and studied

What for? This won't lead people out of samsara .)

[sentinel]

That seems to indicate that some aspects can be measured and studied

What for? This won't lead people out of samsara .)

If one is certain that person is an ariya , faith would arises , then listen to his/her sermons , hence , following his/her footsteps .

[SDC]

A non-ariya is not qualified to verify that degree of development, so even if a monastic were allowed to reveal such attainment it would make absolutely no difference. Perhaps it would rouse faith among followers, but if the claim were false the faith could end up being misplaced and wasted.

[Manopubbangama]

I could introduce you to a plethora of self-proclaimed arahants on the internet if you like.

I'm guessing that their numbers will be growing from now on, especially outside of Buddhist countries, unencumbered by the oppressive monastic patriarchy.

[budo]

Imho, a display of supernormal power would be a better indicator of some form of attainment, although it doesn't mean they're an Ariya.

[Zom]

If one is certain that person is an ariya , faith would arises

One can be certain if Buddha personally confirms that. In all other cases it is a matter of belief.

[Bundokji]

Maybe its the other way around. Maybe they appear only to people with real potential.

[SDC]

Maybe its the other way around. Maybe they appear only to people with real potential.

Exactly.

"One who sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma."

"Whoever sees the Dhamma sees the Buddha."

I image the same can be applied to the arahat.

[JamesTheGiant]

in order to allow scientists to investigate them empirically under controlled conditions and with much details about their neural and behavioral functioning as possible?

I think it's a great idea. Also if they could show some supernormal powers that often come with Enlightenment, have those powers tested and analysed, it would do a lot to bring people to Buddhism. And revolutionise materialistic science as well.

But the Buddha wanted people to keep it quiet and forbade Enlightened monks from showing their powers in public.
So what do I know, I guess he's right and I'm wrong.

[budo]

in order to allow scientists to investigate them empirically under controlled conditions and with much details about their neural and behavioral functioning as possible?

I think it's a great idea. Also if they could show some supernormal powers that often come with Enlightenment, have those powers tested and analysed, it would do a lot to bring people to Buddhism. And revolutionise materialistic science as well.

But the Buddha wanted people to keep it quiet and forbade Enlightened monks from showing their powers in public.
So what do I know, I guess he's right and I'm wrong.

Well you'd have Muslims and Christians calling them satan and attacking them..

Also they could lose their powers as soon as they try to use it for egotistical means as one cannot get to fourth jhana unless the 5 hindrances are suppressed.

[Aloka]

I could introduce you to a plethora of self-proclaimed arahants on the internet if you like.

Daniel Ingram, the guy who runs "Dharma Overground " claims to be an Arhat. I wonder if he's displayed any supernormal powers?

I am an arhat, having attained [full enlightenment] in April, 2003.

I have mastery of the [traditional eight] samatha jhanas [meditative absorptions], including Pure Land One and Pure Land Two, The Watcher, and Nirodha Samapatti [the "extinction of feeling and perception," a meditative state said to only be possible for arhats].

I have some experience with some other traditional attainments.
I can access the state [The DhO] calls No Dog.

http://wisdomquarterly.blogspot.com/201 ... ngram.html

......

[Justsit]

... allow scientists to investigate them empirically under controlled conditions and with much details about their neural and behavioral functioning as possible?

You may find the following article of interest. A number of studies have been done using this type of scientific investigation with some Vajrayana monks. Mingyur Rinpoche, the subject of the article, is an advanced practitioner and highly regarded teacher. The results were intriguing.
https://www.lionsroar.com/how-meditatio ... your-life/

Please note, no claim is made here of anyone's level of attainment, nor any sectarian preference implied.