Eternal citta in "Theravada"? ---> probably Found.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
ToVincent
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Re: Eternal citta in "Theravada"? ---> probably Found.

Post by ToVincent »

plabit wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:26 am what is ignorant if there is no citta for the ignorance to reside in?
Well — I must say that I don't have much interest about that.
If there is something, I wouldn't be able to put a name on it. Would I?

Sāṃkhya (aka sāṅkhya) would call it Purusha. With the latter being the seer.
Purusha is a totally distinct principle - it is distinct fom Prakriti (Nature).

Pre, contemporary, and Post-Buddhist Vedism is a bit trickier, because there is not just one clear representation.
To make it simple (but not accurate), Purusha would be the Unborn and without breath (nir vā) — the purusha in the self (atma) of a human is Brahma. And the light of Purusha is a subdued atma.
Also, by contemplation, brahma expands (citaye).
(Tapas comes from two roots — it means either contemplation, or austerity.)
Here the ci is what expands the world.

None of these philosopies meet Buddha standard.

In Sāṃkhya, Purusha is the seer.
Buddhi (aka Mahat) is the first evolvent to be produced by the primeval Prakriti, at the contact of Purusha.
I would equate Prakriti to the ci. But it's a bit more complicated than that.
However, you cannot liken this kind of ci, with the Buddhist ci - that is responsible for both the development (evolvement) and the seeing (seer).

In pre, contemporary, and Post-Buddhist Vedism, the ci is more involved with the self (atma). And we know that Buddha rejected such a self/self in paṭiccasamuppāda.

So what is this Abyākata (undeclared) you seem to be refering to - that seems to look like Purusha, or the Unborn, or Nibbāna (nir vā - free from breath (blowing))?
Well - it seems that we can't even call them that way - and definitely cannot define them.

Instead, what the Buddha propounded as a means, was to understand as they have come to be, the origin and passing away of the six fields of sensory experience (of contact), their satisfaction, unsatisfactoriness, and the escape from them (viz. total unapropriation as "mine", then "I"); as well as the stilling of all saṅkhārā— that is to say how to reach nibbāna (without remnant).
Definitely it does not mean to understand the nature of the abyākata (avyākata). Does it?
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
TRobinson465
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Re: Eternal citta in "Theravada"? ---> probably Found.

Post by TRobinson465 »

chownah wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:40 pm
cappuccino wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:26 pm
chownah wrote: I don't know how the idea of annihilation or infatuation has come into the discussion.

I have no idea what you are discussing now.
Eternal citta in Theravada
Citta is a dhamma and all dhammas are impermanent.
chownah
No. All sankara are impermanent. All dhammas are non-self.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Eternal citta in "Theravada"? ---> probably Found.

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

ToVincent wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:55 pm
Very good these explanations!

:thanks:

:namaste:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/
Nibbindam
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Re: Eternal citta in "Theravada"? ---> probably Found.

Post by Nibbindam »

I stood on my meditation track and contemplated its brightness, incredulous about how wondrous it appeared. But, in fact, this very radiance that I found so amazing represented the Ultimate Danger. Do you see my point?
...
We tend to fall for the radiant citta. In truth, I was enthralled and already deceived by it. You see, when nothing else remains, one concentrates on this final point of focus, which, as the center of the perpetual cycle of birth and death, actually manifests a condition of fundamental ignorance we call avijjã. This point of focus is the highest state of avijjã, the very pinnacle of the citta in samsãra.
...
...causing me to wonder, “Why is my citta so incredibly bright?” It seems as though it has completely transcended the world of samsãra. Look at that!” Such is the magnificent power that avijjã displays when we reach the final stage of practice. I didn’t yet realize that I had fallen for avijjã’s deception.
...
It’s that focal point of the radiance! And then, that point would have instantly disintegrated. For as soon as I understood its significance, I would also have known its harmfulness, thus causing it to vanish. Instead, I was still carefully protecting and preserving it.
...

The Ultimate Danger, then, lies right there. The point of Ultimate Danger is the core of brilliant radiance that produces the entire world of conventional reality.
...
It became obvious that both sukha and dukkha issued from that source. Brightness and dullness—the differences arose from the same origin
...
This is called “Dhamma arising in the heart.” Kilesas arising in the heart are forces that bind us; Dhamma arising in the heart frees us from bondage.
...Whether it is dullness or brightness, sukha or dukkha, all such dualities are anattã.
...
The meaning was clear: Let everything go. All of them are anattã.
Venerable Ãcariya Mahã Boowa’s Dhamma Talk given at the age of 89 on the 2nd of May, 2002.

Arahattamagga Arahattaphala
Translated from the Thai by Bhikkhu Dick Sïlaratano


Peace.
Last edited by Nibbindam on Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
Nibbindam
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Re: Eternal citta in "Theravada"? ---> probably Found.

Post by Nibbindam »

Finally, we turn the investigation back onto one’s own mind - the mind that grasps to the belief that it is the true, genuine mind, or that it is ‘the knower’. The teaching of the Buddha has us investigate, probing to destroy this ‘knower’ because this ‘one who knows’ is still defiled -
‘the knower’ being no other than avijjā, or fundamental ignorance itself ... The Buddha therefore taught us to come back to having mindfulness and wisdom reflecting to see the impermanence and non-existence of self in everything
Just another exemple by a contemporay Thai Forest Monk.
This whole topic of the eternal citta in the thai forest tradition its probably caused by a huge misunderstanding due to bad and biased translators.

Ajahn Dtun.
from This is the Path.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Eternal citta in "Theravada"? ---> probably Found.

Post by confusedlayman »

Even perception of nibbana is impermanent because perception is impermanent...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
SteRo
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Re: Eternal citta in "Theravada"? ---> probably Found.

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:04 pm Even perception of nibbana is impermanent because perception is impermanent...
You should really first define "impermanence" before using "impermanent" in assertive statements.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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mikenz66
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Re: Eternal citta in "Theravada"? ---> probably Found.

Post by mikenz66 »

Nibbindam wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:15 pm This whole topic of the eternal citta in the thai forest tradition its probably caused by a huge misunderstanding due to bad and biased translators.
Not necessarily even bad and biased. Perhaps just confused. I've had experience with talks by visiting Thai monks being translated by Thai lay people, and it can be extremely confusing. I think the problem is often that it goes from Pali terms to the common Thai terms, to some English terms. Imagine an English speaker trying to translate some hybrid Pali-English term like "volitional formations" into broken French. It won't end well (translating "volitional formations" to French and back to English with Google gives me "voluntary training" :))

In such situations, I try to convince the monk to repeat any technical term he uses in Pali. A good translation is only possible if the translator has an excellent understanding of both Thai Buddhist terminology and English Buddhist terminology.

:heart:
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pegembara
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Re: Eternal citta in "Theravada"? ---> probably Found.

Post by pegembara »

Nibbindam wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:15 pm
Finally, we turn the investigation back onto one’s own mind - the mind that grasps to the belief that it is the true, genuine mind, or that it is ‘the knower’. The teaching of the Buddha has us investigate, probing to destroy this ‘knower’ because this ‘one who knows’ is still defiled -
‘the knower’ being no other than avijjā, or fundamental ignorance itself ... The Buddha therefore taught us to come back to having mindfulness and wisdom reflecting to see the impermanence and non-existence of self in everything
Just another exemple by a contemporay Thai Forest Monk.
This whole topic of the eternal citta in the thai forest tradition its probably caused by a huge misunderstanding due to bad and biased translators.

Ajahn Dtun.
from This is the Path.

The knower/experiencer and the known/experienced cannot be separated - dependently arisen hence without essence.
"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."

When a sage, a brahman, has come to know this
For himself through his own wisdom,
Then he is freed from form and formless.
Freed from pleasure and from pain.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Nibbindam
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Re: Eternal citta in "Theravada"? ---> probably Found.

Post by Nibbindam »

See next comment.
Last edited by Nibbindam on Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nibbindam
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Re: Eternal citta in "Theravada"? ---> probably Found.

Post by Nibbindam »

Another factor that contributes to this misunderstanding comes about when people do not have clear the fact that in the forest tradition there is a strong emphasis in cultivating jhana (sometimes not directly stated). Often times the radiance/luminosity is refering to nimittas (which is considered a reflection of the citta, hence the modality of experiencing the citta in deep states of meditation. That's how perception works). As explained by many experienced teacher who emphasize jhana practice, the object of jhana is exactly that luminosity. The misunderstanding then comes when people consider this to be some sort of ultimate Essence and the goal of spiritual life. Fortunately, as explained by the Ajahns in the previously quoted passages, that is just distorted perception caused by avijja again. Recognized and understood in this way insight into anicca dukkha anatta arise.

For a Better and more detailed explanation see Mindfulness, bliss and beyond by Ajahn Brahm, Focused and Fearless by Shaila Catherine and Mindfulness of breathing by Bhikkhu Analayo.

Peace.
pegembara
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Re: Eternal citta in "Theravada"? ---> probably Found.

Post by pegembara »

I think the issue is with the terms the knower or the one who knows ("poo roo"). It begets the question what is this?
Better just to describe as just knowing.

Between the experiencer and the experience is just experiencing.
"Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.

"If one were to pull away one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall; if one were to pull away the other, the first one would fall. In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Then there is the cessation of experience.
"This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Nibbindam
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Re: Eternal citta in "Theravada"? ---> probably Found.

Post by Nibbindam »

The term phoo roo, ผู้รู้ literally ‘knower', it's used in thai to translate the pali term viññū, or in the context of meditation instructions to refer to sati-sampajañña, but mostly just a term used in everyday language to refer to someone wise, learned, or just discreet. Translation into english and biased western minds, not familiar with everyday thai language, distorted its meaning.
It does not mean anything special.

Really. It's moslty just a messed up language problem.

Peace.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Eternal citta in "Theravada"? ---> probably Found.

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:28 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:04 pm Even perception of nibbana is impermanent because perception is impermanent...
You should really first define "impermanence" before using "impermanent" in assertive statements.
I dont know grammer in english but i think both are same
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
justindesilva
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Re: Eternal citta in "Theravada"? ---> probably Found.

Post by justindesilva »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:24 am
SteRo wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:28 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:04 pm Even perception of nibbana is impermanent because perception is impermanent...
You should really first define "impermanence" before using "impermanent" in assertive statements.
I dont know grammer in english but i think both are same
Citta withiut defilements is nibbana.
Citta with defilements at vatious levels come down from arupavacara citta to kamavacara citta. We as beings are burdened with a cause and effect or paticca samuppada that speak of anitya or impermanence or with modern science citta with defilements undergo relative changes of energy or a manifestatiion of energy.
Going back to nirvana it is energy that is not energy under manifestation, yet it is energy which is cosmic , where all energies do not remain static. Citta which is said to bepure hence undergoes cosmic patterns but cannot be static or permanent being subject to movement.
If citta is eternal it cannot be darma that we talk in buddhism, because there is no darma without cause and effect. It is like considering a God which is neither a cause or effect.
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