Wat Dhammakaya

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
TRobinson465
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by TRobinson465 »

Oh just to let you guys know. I think the discussion is starting to get productive and all, but i will probably take another hiatus from this thread soon. Simply because i have a lot on my to do list. Im pretty sure im the only one on this thread that actually goes to WPD regularly so when i am on here i feel obligated to check in and reply and that actually takes up a lot of my time and distracts my mind a bit. It probably wont be as long as the last hiatus but just letting you guys know.

Ive shared my thoughts and experiences about the temple. and just as the Buddha taught, you should keep in mind that direct experience has way more insight than any amount of reading or second hand accounts. all intepretations are imperfect, only direct experience gives the best understanding. My advice is to be be weary of the random accusations on here and be sure to at least keep in mind the bias of the reports from bkkpost and the nation and whatnot. And of course, try and understand whats actually relevant to Dhammakaya and what also goes on at other temples anyways. Some1 who understands Buddhism solely by reading Suttas will likely have a different opinion of WPD than some1 who has actually visited several different temples of various backgrounds.

Hopefully the discussion will actually go somewhere and not revolve around dead end things like having smartphones and touching money. The thread has moved a lot since the whole "Nazi cult bent on world domination" thing that it was b4.

Till next time Dhamma friends and foes.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.
jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang »

Turmeric wrote:Why don't you ever share anything good about the Dhammakaya. Such as....

The massive ordination of 100,000 monks and the training of one million female lay devotees.

10,000 monk alms round in china town.

1,200+ monk dhutanga walk around bangkok in homage of the Buddha.

Mass food donation to 2 million monks in order to decrease selfishness in society and increase people's generosity.
To me, these are 'display' events to show off. The monk marches are especially like those of the Nazis, led by Adolf Hitler, whom I'm told the Dk abbot admires.
Non-perishable foods received in the project were sent to help victims of civil unrest in the south of Thailand as well as victims of natural disasters in Thailand and abroad.
So, things Dk got but don't want has been used to portray altruism.
Donating a portion of the money they receive to other temples.
You mean allied temples? Political, no?
The v-star project to get children to follow the 5 precepts and practice meditation. The project was such a success that around one million school children flooded the temple gates. There, they meditated together and sang for world peace. Perhaps one of the most amazing moments in Buddhist history.
I wouldn't call a brainwash effort good.
Contributing billions of baht to public charities.
Money from Klongchan and other such sources?
Resurrecting up to 1,900 abandoned temples in the country.
Can you explain what you mean by "resurrecting"? I'm sure you can show proof of that too.
Spreading 80-90 temples throughout the world, including Africa, to propagate the religion and keep it from dying.
You mean set up Dk branches around, right? As someone here with experience in one of them says, it's no good.

Still, I'm sure Dk has done something good. Otherwise who would want to get involved? It's after they get deeply involded that things start to change for the worse. It's hard for them to see it though, because their minds have been influenced.
jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang »

TRobinson465 wrote:Whether or not Somdet Chuang is the most qualified candidate is a matter of debate. Honestly i dont think a system of strict seniority will guarantee the best. That still doesnt change the fact that certain ppl on this thread tried to pretend his nomination was a conspiracy from dhammakaya to take over the world.
Who are those "certain ppl"? Since you say it with such certainty, I'm sure you can quote their posts showing that they "tried to pretend (Somdet Chuang's) nomination was a conspiracy from dhammakaya to take over the world."
Turmeric
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by Turmeric »

jameswang wrote:
Turmeric wrote:Why don't you ever share anything good about the Dhammakaya. Such as....

The massive ordination of 100,000 monks and the training of one million female lay devotees.

10,000 monk alms round in china town.

1,200+ monk dhutanga walk around bangkok in homage of the Buddha.

Mass food donation to 2 million monks in order to decrease selfishness in society and increase people's generosity.
To me, these are 'display' events to show off. The monk marches are especially like those of the Nazis, led by Adolf Hitler, whom I'm told the Dk abbot admires.
Non-perishable foods received in the project were sent to help victims of civil unrest in the south of Thailand as well as victims of natural disasters in Thailand and abroad.
So, things Dk got but don't want has been used to portray altruism.
Donating a portion of the money they receive to other temples.
You mean allied temples? Political, no?
The v-star project to get children to follow the 5 precepts and practice meditation. The project was such a success that around one million school children flooded the temple gates. There, they meditated together and sang for world peace. Perhaps one of the most amazing moments in Buddhist history.
I wouldn't call a brainwash effort good.
Contributing billions of baht to public charities.
Money from Klongchan and other such sources?
Resurrecting up to 1,900 abandoned temples in the country.
Can you explain what you mean by "resurrecting"? I'm sure you can show proof of that too.
Spreading 80-90 temples throughout the world, including Africa, to propagate the religion and keep it from dying.
You mean set up Dk branches around, right? As someone here with experience in one of them says, it's no good.

Still, I'm sure Dk has done something good. Otherwise who would want to get involved? It's after they get deeply involded that things start to change for the worse. It's hard for them to see it though, because their minds have been influenced.
Making random accusations without evidence is slander, which is wrong speech.
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exonesion
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by exonesion »

jameswang wrote:
To me, these are 'display' events to show off. The monk marches are especially like those of the Nazis, led by Adolf Hitler, whom I'm told the Dk abbot admires.
Besides Dr. Mano, I couldn’t find other sources suggesting LP Dhammachayo admire Hitler. And I find this claim slightly unbelievable, given that no one else came forward to back up his claims.

Dr. Mano also claimed: (and this was mentioned earlier in this thread):
(1) WPD invented a new high tech device. (unlikely to be)
(2) WPD stockpiled weapons. (WPD showed the media there isn’t any)
(3) WPD's abbot invested in companies, of which one is a weapons company.

These accusations remain to be proven.
You mean allied temples? Political, no?
Of the provisions they send, some goes to temples in South Thailand, where monks going on alms round is dangerous because of bomb threats. http://www.smh.com.au/world/the-war-in- ... ha6aa.html

In that sense, I believe giving provisions isn’t political. It is just WPD's way of supporting Buddhism in that area, by providing monks there with the four requisites, so they do not have to disrobe because of the lack of them.
I wouldn't call a brainwash effort good.
I don’t think teaching children about the five precepts and meditation is considered brainwashing. That is just common Buddhism.
It's after they get deeply involded that things start to change for the worse. It's hard for them to see it though, because their minds have been influenced.
How have things changed for the worse?
“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.”
The Buddha - MN 152
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exonesion
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by exonesion »

slimdabuddhist wrote: I never heard of buddha meditating and telling others of how their past lives were.
When I saw this, I remembered stories of Buddha's and his disciples' past lives as recounted in the Jātakas.

For example, in the Mahānāradakassapa-Jātaka,
  • Devadetta = Alāta
    Mogallāna = Bījaka
    Bodhisatta = great Brahmā
Since the Jātakas are considered part of the pali canon in Theravada Buddhism under the Khuddaka Nikaya, the Buddha could have told others how people's past lives were. (Please correct me If I'm wrong).

---
On the topic of Luang Phor Dhammachayo being able to see people's past:
It was written in Bangkokpost that:
Phra Dhammajayo allegedly claimed that he had encountered the spirit of a man, Chatchai Rojkiratikan, in heaven.

The spirit asked the abbot to tell his children they should make merit and leave donations for him.

It was found later Mr Chatchai was still alive, which proved Phra Dhammajayo's claim about the spirit encounter was untrue.
I wonder if anyone knows if this actually happened.

---

On the topic of claiming to be able to recall people's past lives as being a Parajika offence,
4. Boasting that one has realised a high spiritual attainment, knowing that one is lying. For example, claiming to be enlightened, to be Maitreya Buddha, to have entered Jhana (deep meditation-ecstasy) or that one can read minds when one knows that one hasn't reached any of these states.
What if Luang Phor Dhammachayo has the ability to see people's past?
But I think that's hard/impossible to prove though.

Regards,
Exonesion
“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.”
The Buddha - MN 152
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exonesion
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by exonesion »

Dear Dhamma friends,

I'd like to share another reason or benefit for Wat Phra Dhammakaya's (WPD) orderliness and cleanliness, and its ceremonies.
TRobinson465 wrote:...we emphasize things like orderliness and cleanliness, and we really emphasize our monks being disciplined. The reason we have such a structure is
1. to uphold the faith of the laypeople by ensuring the monastics observe model behavior and
2. to keep things ordered because we have tons of people and a system of structure is necessary to get thing done.
Another benefit for WPD's orderliness and cleanliness is that they would aid the mind in calming down during meditation.
Back in 2014, I joined WPD's short-term ordination program (IDOP), and I was taught by my teaching monks that keeping things neat and tidy will help in calming the mind in meditation. I tried it and it helped me concentrate a little better, especially when I meditate in a neat place compared to a messy one.

I couldn't find any evidence in the Pali canon saying cleanliness will improve meditation, but it was emphasized in "Cleanliness is next to mindfulness", a Dhamma talk by Thanissaro Bhikkhu:
Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote: ...In other words, while you're living here, don't think that the day-to-day facts of eating or having a place to sleep are minor matters to hurry through so you can get to the real business of meditating. If you're sloppy with things outside, you're going to be sloppy with your meditation. It's a basic principle. You want to learn how to be meticulous, clean, neat, alert in all the things you do. In that way, the activities become not a chore to be disposed of as quickly as possible, or something just getting in the way of your meditation. They become part of the meditation.
With this in mind, we can see WPD's orderliness and cleanliness actually facilitates meditation practice - another practical reason above the two TRobinson465 already mentioned.

---

As for WPD's ceremonies, I've heard one of its purpose can be to impress upon the participants' mind the images of the meritorious event.
This is important, especially at the crucial moment before a person draws his last breath. And this is so because the nimittas (signs) that the person perceive will determine his afterlife destination.
V.F. Gunaratna wrote:
Firstly, it can be the thought of some powerfully impressive act done (kamma) which the dying man now recalls to mind.
Secondly, the powerfully impressive act of the past can be recalled by way of a symbol of that act (Kamma nimitta) as, for instance, if he had stolen money from a safe, he may see the safe.
Thirdly, the powerfully impressive act of the past may be recalled by way of a sign or indication of the place where he is destined to be re-born by reason of such act, as for instance when a man who has done great charitable acts hears beautiful divine music. This is called gati nimitta or the sign of destination. It is symbolic of his place of re-birth.
Therefore, a dying person may see himself giving to the monks at a ceremony.
Or, he may see the items (Kamma nimitta) that he gave to the monks.
Or, he may see his afterlife destination (gati nimitta).

This means if the dying person practiced Buddhism regularly by practicing generosity, keeping the precepts, and practicing meditation, it'll increase his likelihood of attaining a 'good' rebirth.

:anjali:
exonesion
“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.”
The Buddha - MN 152
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pilgrim
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by pilgrim »

I'm not a fan of Dhammakaya but are they being treated fairly?
http://tahr-global.org/?p=32050
Turmeric
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by Turmeric »

The people I respect most in the Thai human rights and prodemocracy movement all tell me that defending Wat Phra Dhammakaya [Phra Dhammakaya Temple] is the most important Thai human rights issue at the moment: That the very independence of Buddhism in Thailand is at stake; that not content with grabbing the reigns of democracy, the junta also needs to grab the reigns of Thailand’s majority religion.
Continue reading....
http://freedomwatchinternational.org/it ... spaceship/
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BlackBird
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by BlackBird »

Turmeric wrote:The people I respect most in the Thai human rights and prodemocracy movement all tell me that defending Wat Phra Dhammakaya [Phra Dhammakaya Temple] is the most important Thai human rights issue at the moment: That the very independence of Buddhism in Thailand is at stake; that not content with grabbing the reigns of democracy, the junta also needs to grab the reigns of Thailand’s majority religion.
Continue reading....
http://freedomwatchinternational.org/it ... spaceship/
The fact, that the charges are so random and unrelated, that they seem minor relative to the many obvious crimes in Thailand that are never investigated (including crimes by other prominent monks), and that this most-wanted abbot is so old and sick that he may die before this is ever resolved, makes one instantly suspect the charges are trumped up and politically motivated
Great logic... /sarcasm
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'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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robertk
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by robertk »

Turmeric wrote:The people I respect most in the Thai human rights and prodemocracy movement all tell me that defending Wat Phra Dhammakaya [Phra Dhammakaya Temple] is the most important Thai human rights issue at the moment: That the very independence of Buddhism in Thailand is at stake; that not content with grabbing the reigns of democracy, the junta also needs to grab the reigns of Thailand’s majority religion.
Continue reading....
http://freedomwatchinternational.org/it ... spaceship/
there is some truth in this. I am no lover of Dhammakaya but the current govt of Thailand is unjust and dangerous and any direct criticism is ruthless suppressed. last month a critic of the govt shared a facebook post of a BBC article about the regime and is still in jail - and expeced to be given a long sentence.

By supporting Dhammakaya they can lean on religion as a proxy to indirectly pressure the govt.
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Jetavan
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by Jetavan »

identification wrote:
The Dhammakaya is a Tantric Theravada group. Tantra is a path to power.
Does anyone use the word tanta, Pali for tantra?
ManEagle
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by ManEagle »

So it appears things have been happening again at Pathum Thani. As the only English news I can find is either from the Bangkok Post or the Nation I was wondering if it's true that Dhammajayo left the temple last Thursday and is apparently now in hiding?

More importantly perhaps, if he was to face the charges against him and even if found guilty I have been wondering what would be the implications for Dhammakaya as a whole? There are those, my wife included, who believes the Thai junta is out to completely destroy Buddhism in Thailand and somehow convert every Buddhist to Islam. I guess anything is possible under a dictatorship but I would have thought this unlikely. Maybe one of the Dhammakaya followers on here would like to comment on this and offer some convincing evidence that this conspiracy theory may have some truth to it.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/general ... e-deadline

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/general ... -on-day-1-
Turmeric
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by Turmeric »

ManEagle wrote:So it appears things have been happening again at Pathum Thani. As the only English news I can find is either from the Bangkok Post or the Nation I was wondering if it's true that Dhammajayo left the temple last Thursday and is apparently now in hiding?

More importantly perhaps, if he was to face the charges against him and even if found guilty I have been wondering what would be the implications for Dhammakaya as a whole? There are those, my wife included, who believes the Thai junta is out to completely destroy Buddhism in Thailand and somehow convert every Buddhist to Islam. I guess anything is possible under a dictatorship but I would have thought this unlikely. Maybe one of the Dhammakaya followers on here would like to comment on this and offer some convincing evidence that this conspiracy theory may have some truth to it.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/general ... e-deadline

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/general ... -on-day-1-
Dude, they have taken over the temple and they are kicking the people out that live in the wat and making them sleep in tents. I'm waiting to see if they are going to steal the entire temple, claim ownership, and steal all of the millions of dollars of valuables in there. The monks complied and let the police into the temple, and now look what is happening. For all of the people here that said "why doesn't the abbot just turn himself in and let the law do it's work?" now watch as the law you have so much faith in steals an entire temple from its owners and steals its property. I wouldn't be surprised if Lp Dhammajayo knew this was going to happen.

My friend at the wat told me they are going to arrest the monks and seduce them into disrobing. Anyone reading this post with any common sense, tell me, do you honestly believe an army of police and soldiers big enough to engage in an all out apocalyptic war were sent to a buddhist temple to arrest one elderly sick monk, or do you think an army of police and soldiers were sent, truthfully, to occupy and steal the largest buddhist temple in the world. They are also monitoring the line messages of the temple members. The anti dhammakaya lynch mobs are taking control of the largest buddhist group in the world, they are tapping our buddhist brothers and sisters phones, and using the media to lie to the public. This is like 1984 stuff. Bhikkhu Thanissaro said that the forest masters in thailand thought that the religion was going to die there but then take root in the west. So it's not unusual to think that this could be the starting point of the beginning of the end of Buddhism in thailand. I have no idea whats going to happen. :shock:
Caodemarte
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by Caodemarte »

ManEagle wrote: More importantly perhaps, if he was to face the charges against him and even if found guilty I have been wondering what would be the implications for Dhammakaya as a whole? There are those, my wife included, who believes the Thai junta is out to completely destroy Buddhism in Thailand and somehow convert every Buddhist to Islam. I guess anything is possible under a dictatorship....
No, it is not possible.
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